Per the Bible: What Is Really the Extent Of man "Free Will?"

Iconoclast...

Your quotes were interesting, but there is nothing in them that suggests that men can not STILL seek God, in response to Gods giving of further Light.

Sorry. My point still stands undisturbed.

AiC

 

When they did what they did(eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil), the sentence of death was placed upon them, and all that would follow after them. As soon as they ate, their eyes were opened, they saw their nakedness, covered it up, and even hid when God came calling out Adam's name. But you can plainly see that they still had communion with God right up to the point when God drove them out of the Garden. Why? Because if they would have eaten of the tree of life, they would have lived. God placed a flaming sword between them and the Tree. That is a symbol of the Word. You have to go through the Sword to get to the Tree to live. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs::wavey:

 

And I do agree with you, the death sentence was passed on to Adam (humanity) at that time. And we probably agree that this death was both physical and spiritual (separation). I am not convinced that Adam was created (designed) for eternal physical existence, as it appears the "Tree of Life" had a role in this. Also, I do not see any expounding by God about this "complete and total" inability to respond in any way to God or his revelation.

 

Allow me to be clear of my position.

Do I believe in the depravity of man...YES in that he has and natural tendency and bent toward doing evil and wrongly, doing against what God desires. This tendency unfortunately displays itself much too often in my thoughts, words and deeds.

Do I believe in the Total Depravity (Inability) as I see the theology of Calvinists describe it. I do not.

The scriptures often cite that mankind is indeed capable of "good".


If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (Matthew 7:11, Luke 11:13)

I do understand then the reply, "Total Depravity does not mean that man is as evil as he can be" (???)

"Total Depravity does not mean man is without a conscience or any sense of moral/ethical right and wrong." (Can it then be said to be TOTAL?)

"Neither does it mean that man is incapable of doing things that seem good when viewed from human standards or perspective" (Only good from human standards not God's. Obedience to God's commands is only good, at times, from the view of humanity?)

"It does not mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform to the Laws of God" (Either they do or they do not conform to the Laws of God, really very simple)

While man looks upon the outward acts (judges them to be good) God looks upon the heart (motives and intent) and judges them otherwise as they proceed from a "heart" in rebellion against Him. Mans desires and deeds are motivated not for the Glory of God, but for his own self interest. ( I AGREE)

I believe the scripture when we are told "there is none good". But I do hold that we are capable of doing "good".

I Kings 15:11

"Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did his father David."

I don't think this would be possible if we were "totally incapable" as held by the calvinist.

Our "inability" is the inability to "not sin" because we are sinners.

 

quantum,
Jn 8 read carefully might help with this as Jesus explained the teaching to religious persons ....bound in sin.

It is total in that it affects every area of life.....heart , mind , emotions, spirit,.....it is not totally absolute,or complete as if a person cannot perform a random act of kindness, or benevolence. gen 6:5 even the" good works" outwardly,have a sinful motive inwardly prov21:4 the plowing of the wicked is sin.....a good deed or work,not done to God's glory is sin still.

You are more in agreement with this than disagreement.
Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )
2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

 

Well, how about this one then?

'The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one' (Psalm 12 2-3. cf. Rom 3:10-12).

We need to be clear though that the inability is moral, not physical. People do not come to Christ, not because they cannot but because they will not. 'And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19). There is no one saying, "Oh! How I wish I could come to Christ but I just can't do it!" Rather they say, "This Christianity is foolishness. I want nothing nothing to do with it" (1Cor 2:14).

Steve

Steve

 

I say old man, "Well done" (Always wanted to say that to a Brit) LOL

Seriously though....spot on! :thumbs:

There is no one saying, "Oh! How I wish I could come to Christ but I just can't do it!" Rather they say, "This Christianity is foolishness. I want nothing nothing to do with it" (1Cor 2:14)

 

Spiritually dead is separation from God, and that is all. I can provide a plethora of references for that. It does not say that man cannot come to God. Many Scriptures used are sweeping generalizations of all mankind. If those Scriptures were written in absolutes such people as Rahab the harlot, Ruth, and even Cornelius could have never been saved. They all had an open heart for the truth. Cornelius wanted to be saved. He sought the Lord before he was saved. He prayed to the Lord before he was saved. God answered him in a vision that he would send someone that would tell him the way of salvation.

Seek ye the Lord while he may be found.
Cornelius sought the Lord, and he found him. God did not let him down.
He was spiritually dead, that is separated from God.
He responded to the light he had.
God sent Peter. Again he responded to the light he had.
God the Holy Spirit working through the Word of God brought Cornelius to salvation. God still works this way today.

 

This is by nature what we ALL do, irregardless of how loudly or eloquently we argue OUR points and positions. QED

 

I can't help noticing that you didn't make any real response to my post. However, allow me to respond to yours.

Cornelius was 'A devout man and one who feared God.....who gave alms generously and prayed to God always.' However, all this could not save him because he was a sinner and hadn't trusted in Christ for salvation. God Himself had to move mightily in his salvation by getting Peter, much against his will, to come and preach to him. Cornelius in his own strength would more easily have worshipped Peter than Christ (Acts 10:25), and it is not until God the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his company (v44) in Almighty power that they found the Saviour.

Now you can call that free will if you like. I call it Sovereign Grace.

Steve

 

...Cornelius...a devout man...that feared God...who gave much...and prayed... Acts 10:1,2

Conelius was all that BEFORE the gospel was ever preached to him. Imagine that, regeneration before conversion......

 

I will speak only for myself, I try to call no ones ideas stupid, ignorant, clueless or otherwise. I have never found something so egregious to warrant that. Everyone should have some degree of humility and recognize that MOST LIKELY none of us have arrived at complete and absolute truth, not even a possibility is it with finite, fallen and corrupt minds?

 

For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves...

The grace in that verse refers specifically to the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ in the sacrificial payment for our sins on the cross. He didn't have to die for our sins. We didn't deserve it. But were it not for his grace in that atonement we would have no chance to be saved.

The faith is our faith.
The gift of God refers to the subject of the verse--salvation. Salvation is the gift of God. Salvation must be accepted by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God. The word of God contains the above message of the wonderful message of the grace of God. It must be accepted by faith and faith alone. sola fide.

God's sovereignty was marvelously at work in bringing all of these factors together: the prayer of Cornelius, Peter praying on the rooftop, Peter's vision along with the vision of Cornelius, the three Gentile men knocking at Peter's door at the same time that Peter was praying when God was telling him about calling unclean those who he has called clean. Then, Peter's decision to go, based on what God had just revealed to him. He decided to take three Jewish brethren with him. They would be witnesses to the events that would follow.

Peter arrives and is warmly welcomed, for this in itself was an answer to an unsaved man's prayer.
He preaches the gospel (by which ye are saved) (1Cor.15:1-4).
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:44)
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:46-47)
--They heard the Word of God. Under conviction they believed and the Holy Spirit fell upon them and indwelt them. They spoke in tongues (a sign for the Jews). They were then baptized.

God sovereignty is seen in the way that he brought all these things together.
God's grace is the marvelous grace displayed on the cross.
We must be faith receive this message of grace in order to be saved.

In the same account:
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

 

What Is Really the Extent Of man "Free Will?"

You'll have to ask the lawyer who offers that service.