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Persuading non-Calvinists

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Ignazio_er, Dec 30, 2003.

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  1. Ignazio_er

    Ignazio_er New Member

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    What I posted didn't say Calvin did it, it said he was tortured and executed for lampooning Calvin. This is the sort of thing that happened in Geneva at Calvin's peak influence.

    I'm not sure articles from Gospelcom could be called unbiased when reporting on some of the horrors of 16th century Geneva.

    As for sources being unbiased (something like this came up on the Al Franken thread in politics), the facts are the facts even if you don't like the reporter.
     
    #21 Ignazio_er, Jan 1, 2004
  2. Ignazio_er

    Ignazio_er New Member

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    Actually, before Luther and Calvin (hate to admit this) the Catholics limited torture to no more than an hour a day and also limited the number of days. These limits were removed in the Reformation by the reformers. So, in historical context, the reformers actually increased the use and effectiveness of torture.

    First of all, this is a history forum, so talking about what actually happened is appropriate. Go to the C/A forum if you want to argue for or against Calvinism. Gruet's execution has nothing to do with my opinion of Calvinism. Second, what you said isn't even true: commenting on a person's actions does not mean their beliefs are too strong to challenge (else what should I think when I see Baptists comment on the popes or catholic inquisitors?)
     
    #22 Ignazio_er, Jan 1, 2004
  3. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    But are they the facts? That's really all I am trying to find out. And a couple of questionable sources on the internet aren't sufficient to completely convince me, and I'm just a little curious. It may be the story is true and those may be accurate accounts, or there may be some truth to the accounts and some hyperbolic language, or the account may be altogether false. I don't know which, and I'm curious. The vitriol spewed in your sources doesn't help them in the credibility department.

    I think I mentioned earlier that I had read in an article once that only one person, the previously mentioned Servetus was executed while Calvin was in Geneva. I didn't necessarily buy that, either, but I had no way to check that claim out.
     
    #23 russell55, Jan 1, 2004
  4. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Yes, this may be the case. And it might not be. It's hard to say. Calvin was on the "outs" with the city council at that time, so either way--hollow gesture or not--his letter may not have been seriously considered.

    Even my mennonite friends admit to the nastiness in their past. They are certainly aware of the pacifying influence Menno Simons had.

    Seems every branch has its skeletons. Which makes finger pointing an ineffective argument.
     
    #24 russell55, Jan 1, 2004
  5. Ignazio_er

    Ignazio_er New Member

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    The first link I posted, http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ247.HTM , lists

    Huizinga, Johan (P), Erasmus and the Age of Reformation, tr. F. Hopman, New York: Harper & Bros., 1957 (orig. 1924).

    and

    Durant, Will (S), The Reformation, (volume 6 of 10-volume The Story of Civilization, 1967), New York: Simon & Schuster, 1957.

    as references, and I think the web page even gives page numbers. The passages from these legitimate and respected historians are not in the least vitriolic. I'm not sure what kind of documentation you want but I think these are up to the generally accepted standards on this board.

    I posted the Ingersoll just because it was something I could find on the internet without much effort and, as you say, he definitely has an axe to grind and would probably take any stick to be the Christian government horse.

    As for your remark that I'm finger pointing, I really don't know what you mean. Bringig up historical facts is appropriate for this forum. Bringing up historical facts about Calvin, Calvinists, or Calvin's Geneva is not necessarily the same thing as arguing against the truth of Calvinism. I think Calvinists should be unafraid to confort the historical realities, just like Catholics should. You don't really think we should deal with all criticism and investigation of Calvinists by dismissing the investigators as mere finger-pointers, do you?

    [ January 01, 2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Ignazio_er ]
     
    #25 Ignazio_er, Jan 1, 2004
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    I didn't intend the fingerpointing remark to mean you and I'm sorry it offended you. I've been around long enough to see the "historical facts" brought up as arguments against the truth of Calvinism, or protestantism, or Lutheranism, or Catholicism, and I'm just pointing out that everyone has very similar skeletons. Anyone who thinks its valid to argue that way can just as easily have the "nasty actors in the past" table turned on them.
     
    #26 russell55, Jan 1, 2004
  7. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "They are certainly aware of the pacifying influence Menno Simons had."
    Personally I rate Simons higher than Luther, Calvin and Zwingli, but I'm both Dutch and a baptist so that's not surprising.

    "Huizinga, Johan (P), Erasmus and the Age of Reformation, tr. F. Hopman, New York: Harper & Bros., 1957 (orig. 1924). "
    In a country with no shortage when it comes to good historians, Johan Huizinga is still considered the greatest Dutch historian, I'd say he is usually reliable.
     
    #27 mioque, Jan 1, 2004
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Best way to persuade someone about "calvinism" is to focus on the points of doctrine, not on the good/bad/ugly of Calvin the man or Geneva the government.

    These are 100% UNRELATED to the doctrinal truth of the basics points. You can't defend ANY man - either he or his followers will always go to some extreme or abuse and if the focus is on the man, then the issues will be clouded over.

    Focus on the points. Each are biblical and therefore defensible.
     
    #28 Dr. Bob, Jan 1, 2004
  9. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Then I shall accept the account as recorded by him. I still question the standard of scholarship of the web page he is quoted on. Some dates don't add up, and some quotes seem like they might be taken out of context and made to say something very different than intended originally in the context.
     
    #29 russell55, Jan 1, 2004
  10. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "You can't defend ANY man - either he or his followers will always go to some extreme or abuse and if the focus is on the man, then the issues will be clouded over."
    Absolutely true, there are so many versions of extreme Calvinism crawling around the Dutch Bible belt that there is enough ammunition there to sully the names of half a dozen great reformers. That doesn't mean that Jean Calvin's views were wrong.
    Calvin's views are ofcourse a horrendous treacherous heresy, a blight that must be etc.
    I'm only saying this last bit to annoy dr. Bob ofcourse. :D


    "Then I shall accept the account as recorded by him. I still question the standard of scholarship of the web page he is quoted on."
    The Huizinga quote looks good, unless it was forged from whole cloth. But yes I would be very cautious with the information on that page.
     
    #30 mioque, Jan 2, 2004
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