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Plain Sense Syllogisms from Acts 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tim, Oct 23, 2005.

  1. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Hank.
    You just pinpointed Grasshopper's problem with prophesy interpretation. He/she will not accept a dual or partially fulfilled prophesy.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    We still love him/her [​IMG]

    Jesus Christ is not only Savior but Lord of lords and King of kings.

    HankD
     
  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Doesn’t plain, literal sense mean you would take “swords” and “bows” literally in Is 13?

    Isa 13:15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword .

    Isa 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.


    No joke. This is my point. But it seems as if only dispies such as you, Jack and Hank are allowed to determine which verses fall into which category. Preterist are not allowed this privilege.

    LE I know you don’t actually like to answer questions, but perhaps you can answer a few Jack could not. Hank you are free to answer as well.

    Questions concerning Is. 13:

    1.So the fact that the Medes conquered Babylon is just as mere coincidence and has nothing to do with Isaiah 13?

    2.Do the Iranians(Medes) destroy the world using nuclear weapons(swords and bows)?

    3.Will the entire world then be left uninhabitable?

    4.Where will the Iranians (Medes) live after destroying the entire earth?

    5. I can only assume if Is. 13 means entire earth, then Jerusalem herself will be destroyed and never to be inhabited again. Correct?
     
  4. R. Charles Blair

    R. Charles Blair New Member

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    So far as I can tell, no one has even tried to answer what kind of "great light" was seen by
    "Galilee of the Gentiles" (Mt. 4:12-17). The answer might help on the "literal/figurative" issue. Some things are literal in the spiritual realm! ("God is Spirit", Jn. 4:24, for example.)

    Best- Charles - Ro. 8:28
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Hi grasshopper, "you have much to learn"

    Where have you heard that before? [​IMG]

    Though I am retired, I will still on occassion practice my vocation (IT systems architect).

    I must be off and problem solving this AM.

    But "I'll be back" later and give an answer.

    HankD
     
  6. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Grasshopper.
    As I have already proved from historic records, the Medes did conquor Babylon, but not in the manner stated in the Isa. 13 prophesy that is one of mercyless killing and destruction. Neither Darius or Cyrus had that done to Babylon. This is a historic fact.

    And even if the prophesy was fully done in 539 BC, that does not preclude a final Great Tribulation in the world. And what about the prophesy of Babylon's destruction in Revelation 18? Was that too written before 539 BC, of did John write Revelation in the first century?

    And what about spiritual Babylon in chapter 17? When was this mystery religion ended in the first century as you suppose, and what religion was it? Do you have any documentation from the Early Church Fathers on this event?

    And before you say that I don't answer your question, you might give us documention of the concensous from those same writers on just who the "revealed" man os sin was from Thessalonians.

    And if you read Isa. 13:6 and 11-12 you will see that it is God that destroys in the world, not the Iranians. They are said to only attack Babylon. Look if you will at Isa. 14:`14-15. That prophesy is given as well with Babylon. Can you say that that has happened to Satan before 500 BC?
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    I'm back but tired.

    Tomorrow.

    HankD
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    So then you are saying Is. 13 was not fulfilled when the Medes destroyed Babylon and in fact was just a huge coincidence.

    Are you now saying it might have been? If so, then verse 10 was also fulfilled.

    No one is saying otherwise.

    What about it? It is a different Babylon.

    The Babylon of Revelation was Jerusalem with its perverted form of Old Covenant Judaism.

    Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    On the destruction of Jerusalem?

    Been there, done that. If I had a picture of the man with 666 on his forehead you wouldn’t believe it. So why am I going to do your work for you?

    So while the Iranians are dropping nuclear bombs on Babylon, God is destroying the rest of the “world”. I showed you from Strong’s what the word world means. But since you don’t believe me, look up the word “world” as used in this verse, and see the definitions for yourself.

    John Gill

    Isa 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven ,.... This is not to be understood of the fall of Satan , and the apostate angels, from their first estate, when they were cast down from heaven to hell, though there may be an allusion to it; see Luk_10:18 but the words are a continuation of the speech of the dead to the king of Babylon , wondering at it, as a thing almost incredible, that he who seemed to be so established on the throne of his kingdom, which was his heaven, that he should be deposed or fall from it.

    Gill who is a futurist understands that Is 13 speaks of a past event. He goes on to say:

    So the destruction of the Roman Pagan emperors is signified by the casting out of the dragon and his angels from heaven, Rev_12:7 and in like manner Rome Papal, or the Romish antichrist, will fall from his heaven of outward splendour and happiness, of honour and authority, now, possessed by him:
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    grasshopper says...
    According to the distinctive of Soul Liberty you and every human being has the right to interpret Scripture as you please, searching the Scriptures to see if certain things be so.

    Personally, I have never denied you or anyone that right.

    Having said that my own point of view is that the NT Scripture itself teaches the principle of at least dual (near-far) fulfillment of certain Scripture or certain prophecy.

    For instance Hosea 11 contextually teaches that God called Israel out of Egypt.

    Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
    2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.
    3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.
    4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.
    5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.

    But it is isolated and applied in Matthew 2 and used as a fulfillment of the return of Jesus, Mary and Joseph to Israel.

    Matthew 2
    14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
    15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

    Or in Jeremiah 31 where God promises to restore Israel from their captivity:

    Jeremiah 31
    10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
    11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.
    12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.
    13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.
    14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.
    15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

    Isolated and applied to Herod’s slaughter:

    Matthew 2
    16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
    17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
    18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

    Personally I don’t normally accept the title of “dispensationalist” or “dispie”, “Calvinist” or “Arminian” because I don’t accept all of any of these bodies of thought (sometimes differing among themselves) especially if they have their name as a derivative of a man’s name (1 Corinthians 1:12).

    But for the sake of the debate I will say that I have dispensational leanings and believe that Israel will be revived (in belief) as the head of the nations and restored to the Land “HaEretz” in the End Times of the Last Days for the duration of the Millennium.

    I know some will not agree but my view derived from Scripture is that OT Sripture/prophecy may have partial fulfillment in chronology, that is have near as well as long range fulfillment (and in some cases isolated from the original context, RE Matthew 2:17-Jeremiah 31:15, etc).

    Also OT Scripture/prophecy very often contains metaphors, similes, colloquialisms and figures of speech whose nuances perhaps may have been lost to the 21st century reader.

    And yes even allegory (at very least one):

    Galatians 4
    21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
    30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

    What is saddening is that so many take the opportunity to belittle each other concerning the views which they have developed out of a sincere desire to know the Scriptures and the will of God for themselves and mankind.

    I certainly grant that is the desire of your heart without reservation.

    Having said all that, my view of Isaiah 13 is that it has both a near-far and selective fulfillment at the time of the writing both as to the post Babylonian captivity and the impending destruction of that Babylon and the far reaching destruction of MYSTERY BABYLON of the Revelation.

    The problem for any of us no matter what our position, is sorting it all out (which is evident by the many views and heated debates here at the BB).

    HankD
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Moses Stuart wrote a book entitled, “Hints on the Interpretation of Prophecy” you might find interesting.

    If dual-fulfillment is applicable to prophecies then which ones and why only dual? Why not multiple fulfillments? It seems if dual-fulfillment is a legitimate interpretation technique, then only inspired NT writers could tell us which ones are.

    If it is left to each individual then one could almost make any doctrine out of such a practice. Jesus is the fulfillment of many Old Testament prophecies, who is to say that those prophecies don’t have “dual-fulfillments”? Perhaps Jesus is a type of another coming Messiah? On what grounds would you say I am wrong, if you allow any prophecy to have multiple fulfillments? This is why I would reject the “dual-fulfillment” theory except in cases where inspired writers reveal it to us. The examples you gave would fit this category, though I am still not sure when they were given they were intended to have two fulfillments.

    Very good, but do you not understand how someone like me would come to the conclusion that the “end times” and “last days” were a first century occurrence based on scripture and scripture alone?

    I Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,

    Peter declares that Jesus was manifested at the “end of times.”

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    The writer of Hebrews says Jesus spoke to Hebrew people “in the last days”.

    So it seems as if the burden of proof is on those who say the “end times” and “last days” occur thousands of years after the writings of Hebrews and I Peter. If true, then does that make those writers wrong and in error? Is this where one turns to “dual-fulfillment’? If so, then what “end of times” and “last days” were these inspired writers referring to?

    Preterist are accused of not taking the Bible literally, yet it seems only preterist take these two verses literally.

    Excellent. This is what I have tried to get across to those who insist on literalism. Yet it seems everytime one of these examples is brought up, the charge of “spiritualizing” or “not taking the Bible literally” comes from someone in the dispie camp.

    Example:

    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    So if Is. 13 had a near fulfillment in the destruction of Babylon 2500 years ago then that means Is.13:10 had a near fulfillment as well.

    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

    Would you not agree that this is an example of prophecy contained in metaphoric/figure of speech language? If so then why should we assume Joel 2 is any different:

    Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    If it too is metaphoric language then why do we insist that when Peter quotes this verse in Acts and saying it is what Joel prophesied it now must be taken “literally”?

    Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

    If it then indeed is metaphoric language, then there is no problem in allowing it to be a 1st century fulfillment, especially considering the fact that all the other verses in the prophecy did find fulfillment in the 1st century.


    Very true. Too bad we can’t discuss it without being labeled as a heretic.
     
  11. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Grasshopper.
    You wrote:

    If that is true, then why does the same religion still exist today over 1,900 years after you say "it is fallen" (18:2)? And exactly how does verse 18 of chapter 17 apply to 1st century Jerusalem? And who exactly are these 10 Jewish kings that gave power to the Beast? You know, the Beast that Revelation states "Who could make war with the Beast" (13:4).

    And an easy way to tell if prophesy is dual in it's meaning to see how much of the prophesy has taken place, and when. For instance, in Gen. 3:15 God says that Satan will bruise Christ's heel, and that Christ will bruise Satan's head. We all know that Satan moved the people to crucify Jesus, but we also know that Satan's fatal bruise is yet future.

    And note this from Luke 4:17-21:

    "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias.
    And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the
    brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
    And He began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

    Why do you suppose that Jesus left off the rest of Isa. 61:2?

    "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" Isa. 61:1-2

    Do you suppose that only part of the prophesy was to take place then, and the other part later upon His return? I hope so, because that was exactly His intent.

    You would also do well to read Isa. 62 which states:

    "For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
    And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of
    the LORD shall name.
    Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
    Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
    For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God
    rejoice over thee." Isa. 62:1-5

    And as it says in Zech. 12:10 the Jews will see their error and be saved. And also as it says in Zech. 14 Jesus will not fight against Jerusalem here, but defend it.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Grasshopper says…
    Why dual? Please remember I said “certain” Scripture/prophecy.

    But, probably because there are two testaments, the Old (law) and the New (grace) each with a cataclysmic end.

    John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Even the prophets themselves who wrote of these things (salvation and the glory to follow) and angels have difficulties in this:

    1 Peter 1
    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    OK but why then did the inspired writer say that they were fulfillments?

    Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken (past tense) of the Lord by the prophet, saying…

    Matthew 2 17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken (past tense) by Jeremy the prophet, saying…

    OK, but I am not one of those “dispies”. There is room for both and allegory as well IMO.

    Probably not or it was a local thing. I said Isaiah 13 and I meant it “as a whole”. I gave you examples from the OT in which the NT fulfillment centered in on 1 or two verses of the near fulfillment. I also said that the far reaching fulfillment may be selective as in the examples I gave.

    You have a similar problem IMO because everything that doesn’t appear to fit the near view you need to allegorize or spiritualize.

    Yes, I agree it is a mix but Joel 2 is another case and each must be individually analyzed. Why assume it must be the same?

    The interpretation of prophecy (or Scripture in general but particularly prophecy) is an ancient problem.
    Bad allegorizing and wrongly dividing the Scripture has led to bizarre error.
    There has also been disagreement as to “comparing Scripture with Scripture”, which ones to which other ones? Most likely It’s not going to go away soon.

    Prophecy is a blend of many factors but not all of those factors may be present in any given prophecy. True, the examples I gave which illustrate this were given by an inspired writer. I just don’t believe it is necessary in every single case we must however rightly divide the Word of Truth.

    Matthew 13 in which Jesus gives the "mysteries" of the Kingdom of Heaven expounds upon 2 of them and then leaves the rest up to us.

    Yes but don't feel alone, there is one individual (he hasn't been around for a while), who gives his view and then spends several posts lambasting us and letting us know how ignorant and deceived by satan we are.

    HankD
     
  13. R. Charles Blair

    R. Charles Blair New Member

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    Evidently no one knows what "great light" was seen by "Galilee of the Gentiles"? Selah - Charles - Ro. 8:28
     
  14. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Jesus is the Light of the world. John 8:12

    And we are not big here on riddles, but it is a quote from Isa. 9:1-2. I would quess that your point is that the rest of Isa. 9 is still yet to be fulfilled. And of course right you are, much to the dismay of preterists everywhere.
     
  15. Mercury

    Mercury New Member

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    I'm sympathetic to the preterist interpretation though not completely convinced by it (perhaps just because I haven't studied this area enough). I usually don't get into these topics, but I've enjoyed reading Grasshopper and Hank's discussion and wanted to comment on one thing:

    I think there's a difference. When a preterist looks at Isaiah 13, they assume based on historical record that it was fulfilled and then look at how it was fulfilled in order to determine what was literal and what was allegory or perhaps an evocative description of the spiritual reality "behind the veil". Because history does not record that the luminaries were darkened, verse 10 seems to not be literal. The same goes for Joel 2:28ff: most of the verses are fulfilled literally at Pentecost and the time shortly afterward, but the similar imagery of the heavens does not seem to have been literally fulfilled. So, with a pattern established of the luminaries being used in prophecy to heighten the spiritual import of an event, the same is applied to Revelation.

    It isn't just a matter of looking at Revelation and saying that because the stars didn't literally fall to the earth in 70 AD, those verses must be figurative. That type of imagery was already established as figurative before one even gets to Revelation or considering the fall of Jerusalem. Preterism uses the past fulfillment of prophecy to reveal what type of language is likely to be literal, while futurism generally moves parts of prophecy that aren't fulfilled literally into the future where they will presumably be literally fulfilled. I think the preterist approach allows Scripture to influence interpretation in a way that the futurist approach (at least in this respect) does not.
     
  16. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    I think there's a difference. When a preterist looks at Isaiah 13, they assume based on historical record that it was fulfilled and then look at how it was fulfilled in order to determine what was literal and what was allegory or perhaps an evocative description of the spiritual reality "behind the veil". Because history does not record that the luminaries were darkened, verse 10 seems to not be literal. The same goes for Joel 2:28ff: most of the verses are fulfilled literally at Pentecost and the time shortly afterward, but the similar imagery of the heavens does not seem to have been literally fulfilled. So, with a pattern established of the luminaries being used in prophecy to heighten the spiritual import of an event, the same is applied to Revelation.

    It isn't just a matter of looking at Revelation and saying that because the stars didn't literally fall to the earth in 70 AD, those verses must be figurative. That type of imagery was already established as figurative before one even gets to Revelation or considering the fall of Jerusalem. Preterism uses the past fulfillment of prophecy to reveal what type of language is likely to be literal, while futurism generally moves parts of prophecy that aren't fulfilled literally into the future where they will presumably be literally fulfilled. I think the preterist approach allows Scripture to influence interpretation in a way that the futurist approach (at least in this respect) does not.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I would like to comment that when something happens in the spiritual realm, it's literal as well.

    I would argue that we have already proven that some prophesies are dual in their time frame, such as Gen. 3:15 as well as others that have been clearly pointed out on this page. So then the rule that preterists apply that Mercury calls an assumption (good choice of words), is clearly not a good rule in interpreting prophetic Scripture. But sadly is one that is used extensively by Preterists.
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Yes, but who decides which ones? You have yours and others have theirs. How can you allow for dual fulfillments yet deny someone else who wishes to say Messianic prophecies have dual or even multiple fulfillments?

    I’m not saying you are wrong on this point. This is a subject I’m still looking into. However If those verses do have a dual fulfillment ,in the narrow sense and not broad sense, then it seems we should only allow those verse to which inspired writers say have dual fulfillments. To go outside the inspired writers is a very slippery slope that can lead to almost any doctrine one wants to push.

    How could the events of Is. 13:10 be a local event?
    If it was not fulfilled why is it contained in a prophecy regarding Babylon?


    Perhaps you can point out which verses in Is 13 were fulfilled in the “near”, and tell me which were not fulfilled and are for the “far”. It seems a stretch to take anything out of Is 13 and say it was not fulfilled in the events of 2500 years ago.

    This is the point I was making earlier. You said this:

    Also OT Scripture/prophecy very often contains metaphors, similes, colloquialisms and figures of speech whose nuances perhaps may have been lost to the 21st century reader.

    Yet when a preterist uses this form of interpretation you claim we “spiritualize” or “allegorize” scripture. It like “heads I win, tails you lose”.

    Why assume it is different? This is common language throughout the OT.


    Judgement on Egypt(530BC)

    Ez.32:7 And when I shall extinguish thee, I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
    8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord Jehovah.

    Fall of Israel

    Amos 8: 8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? yea, it shall rise up wholly like the River; and it shall be troubled and sink again, like the River of Egypt.
    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord Jehovah, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day.

    Judgement on Nineveh

    Nahum 11 The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
    2 Jehovah is a jealous God and avengeth; Jehovah avengeth and is full of wrath; Jehovah taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
    5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt; and the earth is upheaved at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

    Judgement on Edom

    Is. 34: 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.
    5 For my sword hath drunk its fill in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

    Compare with
    Rev. 6:14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Davids flight from the Anger of Saul

    Ps.18: 4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
    6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears.
    7 Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations also of the mountains quaked And were shaken, because he was wroth.
    8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, And fire out of his mouth devoured: Coals were kindled by it.
    9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; And thick darkness was under his feet.
    10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly; Yea, he soared upon the wings of the wind.
    11 He made darkness his hiding-place, his pavilion round about him, Darkness of waters, thick clouds of the skies.

    Unless you believe all those literally/physically happened Joel follows the same pattern:
    Joel 2
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.

    Which brings us back to Acts and the day of Pentecost.


    Mercury, what you laid out is why I went from the dispie view to the preterist view.
     
  18. Mercury

    Mercury New Member

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    Things literally happen in the spiritual realm, but we can only apprehend most of those things through descriptions that are not literal. Our languages aren't capable of describing the spiritual realm except through metaphor and symbolism -- by stretching words that apply to our physical world and extending them by analogy into the spiritual realm.

    No, I don't think you've proven that particular example. You said that "this prophesy has been only 1/2 fulfilled several thousand years after it's pronouncement". I disagree, since I believe that what Jesus did at Calvary was a defeat for Satan. As such, the entire prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, even though its outworking continues to the present and into the future.

    Perhaps there are exceptions to it, but to be honest the loose way the New Testament sometimes seems to refer to a prophecy out of context (such as Matthew 2:15,18) is an issue I struggle to understand. (A case outside of prophecy is Paul's revelation in 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 that a law about oxen was actually written entirely for its application to human labourers. Aside from this Scripture passage, who'd 'av known?) Like Grasshopper, I've basically concluded that the Holy Spirit gave insight to the inspired author in those particular situations, and I'm not in a position to likewise pull other prophecies out of context. Also, the Matthew texts Hank mentioned do not undercut the original complete fulfillment: God did bring Israel out of Egypt, for instance. At best, they are an argument for a double fulfillment (one literal and one more allegorical), and not for a partial literal fulfillment followed later by another partial literal fulfillment.

    So, I do think it's a good rule, even if it turns out to not be universal. I think it's far more valid than the assumption that everything not fulfilled as one expected it to be fulfilled should just be pushed to the future. As others have mentioned, that's the same thing many Jews did when the Messiah didn't come the way they expected. Instead of dictating the terms by which prophecy must be fulfilled, I think there's value in using the past fulfillment of prophecy to reveal how we should prophecy.

    [ November 12, 2005, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Mercury ]
     
  19. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    I wrote:
    -------------------------------
    I would argue that we have already proven that some prophesies are dual in their time frame, such as Gen. 3:15 as well as others that have been clearly pointed out on this page.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And you replied:
    No, I don't think you've proven that particular example. You said that "this prophesy has been only 1/2 fulfilled several thousand years after it's pronouncement". I disagree, since I believe that what Jesus did at Calvary was a defeat for Satan. As such, the entire prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, even though its outworking continues to the present and into the future.

    -------------------------------------------------
    It's easy to prove that Gen. 3:15 is fulfilled in different times. Peter says in 1 Peter 5:8 that "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

    And...

    "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." Rev. 2:13

    Satan doesn't get his metaphoric head wound (death) until Rev. 20:10 is fulfilled. Satan has been defeated, but he is alive and well as the prince of the power of the air. (Eph. 2:2)

    I also gave the clear example of what Christ quoted from Luke 4:17-21 earlier:

    And note this from Luke 4:17-21:

    "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias.
    And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the
    brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
    And He began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

    Why do you suppose that Jesus left off the rest of Isa. 61:2?

    "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" Isa. 61:1-2

    Jesus said that the part that He quoted was fulfilled on that day. He purposely left off the last part of verse 2 from Isiah. Now even the preterist would agree that the last part of Isa. 61:2 didn't happen until at least 70AD. This is a clear irrefutable example of a dual time prophesy. And there are many more examples in the OT.

    Why would God give people a prophesy that gets fulfilled without our knowledge in some spiritual realm? How does He get the glory for that here? And why even let us know about it in the first place?

    And that's nonsense that the Jews interpreted prophesy about the Messiah in that same way as the futurist. I would argue that they used the preterist view instead. They didn't like that Jesus wasn't their the military leader that they wanted, so they rejected Him. Even though He clearly fulfilled the prophesies that said that He would speak in parables; He would heal the sick, etc.

    Jesus chided then for not knowing that He was the Messiah.

    "The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired Him that He would shew them a sign from heaven.
    He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
    And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky;
    but can ye not discern the signs of the times?" Mt. 16:1-3
     
  20. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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