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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Apr 29, 2016.

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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    "The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are attentive to their cry; but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to blot out their name from the earth."[Psalms 34:15-16]

    "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."[1 Peter 3:12]

    Now, if the unregenerate can call upon the Lord and then be regenerated, how can God look upon them, how can He hear their prayers in a wicked state of life...prior to regeneration I mean?
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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  3. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Maybe it's a sleeper topic. What was that one thread you had last month? That thing went unanswered for almost a week, then I logged in in one day and it was on like page 10.
     
  4. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I'll take a stab at it, though. God hears all prayers.

    Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:13
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    The verse in 1 Petet is given as the reason for 1 Peter 3:8, which summed up Peter's point. Peter assumes his audience capable if good and evil.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530A using Tapatalk
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    This question confuses me coming from someone who is reformed. The issue as I have always seen it communicated by reformed folks is that the unregenerate cannot call out to God for salvation. However, here the issue is how can God look upon the unregenerate? Now I am just quoting what you posted.

    Would God not have to look upon them to regenerate them whether it was before they called on Him for salvation or after?

    Second, do you really believe God cannot actually hear the prayers of the lost? Do you believe the sin of man is more powerful that the omniscience of God? Is there something God cannot know about someone simply because they are unregenerate?

    I think you unintentionally painted yourself into a theological corner.
     
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  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oh, I agree God 'hears' all prayers, but I do not think He honors the prayers of the unregenerate. Here's what I mean.

    I have a bunch of friends on FB, and some post sicknesses of family members and ppl praying for them. A bunch will get on there and mention they'll be praying, yet are living rebellious lives before God. Sinners, all of them, are living rebellious lives(I am meaning the unregenerate here, as we all are still sinners, but saved from our sins), and they expect their prayers God will honor? Srsly?

    In prayer, it is commanded for us to pray to God, through the name of Jesus. The unregenerate do not have that ability to pray in the name of Jesus, seeing they do not truly know Him as Lord and Saviour.

    Carry this over in the conversion of the unregenerate. It is imperative to understand that regeneration is first. Regeneration gives them the ability to call out to God. God then hears their prayer. If someone is truly praying from the heart, seeking forgiveness, they have already been saved. They have been quickened to see themselves as sinners in need of saving.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I believe I understand your statement, brother SG, and the emphasis on regeneration prior to repentance (or calling out to God). But it is not imperative to understand that regeneration comes before calling out to God (that one must already be saved before they call out to be saved). I say this because, regardless as to the theological accuracy of your statement, Scripture itself does not treat it as imperative to understand that regeneration comes first.

    Just to clarify my understanding of your position – are you saying that God regenerates a man and then man has faith (one is made spiritually alive and then because they are spiritually alive they are able to believe)? In other words, men are actually saved apart from faith in Christ so that they are able to and will believe?
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    I don’t think SovereignGrace’s painting of himself into a theological corner was unintentional. I think that he is trying to paint that theological corner as the entire room. He is applying the philosophical argument that regeneration by necessity precedes faith to passages of Scripture which do not necessarily deal with the topic.
     
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    [edit, provocative] it's imperative to understand ordo salutis.

    The natural man has no faith...what I mean is that the 'faith' the unregenerate has is innate but that faith is directed towards everything and everyone but God. It is like love. Ppl love their family, friends, pets, etc., but that is not the love needed to love God. I say that because all faiths are not the same neither is love. The faith and love necessary for salvation is born via the Spirit of God.

    So no, man is NOT saved apart from faith in Christ(have zero clue why you think I stated that). But the natural man has not the faith necessary to be saved. In fact, the natural man does not want to be saved. That is why understanding regeneration leads to salvation(ordo salutis) is imperative.
     
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  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Again, it is not philosphy I posted. God's eyes are against them that are not saved. His ears are only open to them who love Him. His ears are only open to their prayers. That is bible.

    Ppl say they pray to God and He hears them, yet they are not saved. Yet the bible affirms His face is against the unregenerate.
     
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  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Well he is doing that as all cals do but he also is making arguments today that cannot be supported with scripture nor reason and he has no way out.
     
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Howso?
     
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Here's the thing. The unregenerate do not want to be saved. They love sin and self too much. They hate Him.

    But they do think they can pray to God and He answers their prayers. Prayer is to be under the authority(name) of Jesus Christ. The unregenerate can not have their prayers answered by God.
     
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  15. JonC

    JonC Lifelong Disciple
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    Do you believe that there is a moment when men are spiritually alive apart from faith in Jesus Christ?
     
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    [edited] When a sinner is regenerated, they are given faith, repentance and love.

    Here's the point I am trying to get across. I was scanning FB a few secs ago..stuck home due to high water and church was cancelled. A friend of mine posted she was praying for all the flood victims. Now, she was married to my childhood friend who I went to school with from K-----12. They divorced years ago and have been shacked up ever since their divorce. She does not go to chutch, is shacked up with a man...they have 3 or 4 kids, too. And she expects God to answer her prayer(s). Absolutely not.
     
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  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Once again a Calvinist limiting the sovereignty of God.




    Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
     
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I use bible and get slandered by saying I limit God's sovereignity.

    In prayer, are we commanded to pray in the name of Jesus? Yes or no will suffice.

    If 'yes', then explain how the unregenerate(who hate Him, btw), can pray in the name of Jesus..you know...the God they hate.
     
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  19. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Have you been inside a Unitarian Church? Plenty of unregenerate people praying in the name of Jesus. My kids preschool, all of the children pray before lunch, in Jesus' name, yet does this guarantee they are all regenerated?

    What about the citizens of Nineveh?
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Actually, no. He did not say "God cannot answer" he said God does not answer. God choosing to not answer a prayer not offered in faith is well within His Sovereignty. :)
     
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