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Featured Please Provide Input on Revelation 12:4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by George Antonios, May 31, 2021.

  1. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


    Abiding by the revelation that the word of God is twoedged (Heb.4:12) I see in vs.1-5 two equally valid applications: the one historical (fulfilled), the other prophetic (not yet fulfilled). Although the context is apparently the first coming of Christ, v.4’s cross-reference to Daniel 8:10 (And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them) places the passage in the tribulation. Moreover, there was no such event as the casting of one third of the stars to earth and their stamping around Christ’s birth. Finally, the dragon casts the stars down with his tail which matches the false prophet according to: Isa 9:15 the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. By extension therefore, the whole vision of vs.1-6 must be prophetic – not notwithstanding the historical application.

    Now, I know some of you more enlightened brethren have already entered the millennial kingdom, and like your Corinthian forebears have reigned as kings without us (1Co.4:8) dispensationalists. Bless your hearts.
    So here's your chance to correct literalist, futurist heresy, because I have hardly found a commentator that discusses the fall of 1/3 of the stars of heaven and their stamping circa the birth of Christ, as the exclusively preterist interpretation of Revelation 12:1-5 demands.
    Could you please tell how 1/3 of the stars of heaven (whether Jews or angels) fell from heaven to earth, and were stamped by the devil (Daniel 8:10) around the birth of Christ (Rev.12:4)?

    Thanks.
     
    #1 George Antonios, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
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  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You made a mistake in the first sentence. The two-edged sword has nothing to do with prophecy. Just check the context.
     
  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Right. So will you help out here with an preterist interpretation of Revelation 12:4 or not?
     
  4. thomas15

    thomas15 Active Member

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    Those convinced that the modern preterist movement is viable are only certain of one thing and that one thing is those individuals who take a literal interpretation of the actual words of the Bible are wrong.
     
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  5. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Probably not. You look like you are coming out swinging. I am not interested in mere arguing.
     
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  6. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    And yet you took the time to offer a correction, so too late to take the high ground now.
    So come on , what's your input?
    I don't deny a historical application. Just stuck on the 1/3 of the stars falling and getting stamped circa Christ's birth.
     
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    @George Antonios :
    I realize that I'm not the targeted audience,
    but I'd like to contribute a few things that I've come to understand in my studies using the passage that you listed in Revelation 12:


    1) In Revelation 12:1-2, the "woman" is the very same woman as described in the rest of the passage.
    She is the bride of Christ.
    The crowns upon her head are the 12 apostles, whose names are in the 12 foundations that make up the New Jerusalem ( Revelation 21:14 ).

    2) In Revelation 12:3, the great dragon ( which we are told is Satan in Revelation 12:9 ) has 7 "heads" and ten "horns"...
    the same as the "beast" found in Revelation 13:1-2 to whom the dragon gave his power.

    3) In Revelation 12:4, Mary, who is one of God's children, had Satan "stand before her" in the person of Herod, with the intent of killing the Lord Jesus when he sent out his soldiers to Bethlehem and killed all male children 2 years and under ( Matthew 2:16 ).
    This was foretold in Jeremiah 31:15.

    That same dragon, whose "tail" gathered to himself 1/3 of the stars of Heaven ( a third of the angels fell to earth as Revelation 12:9 states ),
    is still the god of this world who blinds men to the truth of the Gospel ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ).

    4) In Revelation 12:5, Mary has brought forth a man-child ( the Lord Jesus Christ ) who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron;
    This same Jesus was caught up to God's throne and makes intercession for His people to this day.

    5) In Revelation 12:6, the "woman" ( the bride of Christ ) flees into the wilderness and will be fed there for 1,260 days...
    roughly 3.5 years or 42 months, which is the extent of the "Great Tribulation" ( Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-21, Mark 13:14-23 ).

    6) Revelation 12:7-8 has already taken place...
    God cast out the devil and his angels, and this was stated as already having taken place in Isaiah 14:12:
    " How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

    The Lord Jesus Himself was witness to this in Luke 10:18,

    Where He said:
    " And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.".



    Finally, I see the "stamping" that the goat does in Daniel 8 as being prophetic imagery for what is going to happen ( after Daniel's time ) after the Babylonian / Chaldean Empire ( and then Persian Empire, the two "horns" being symbolic of the Medes and Persians ) falls to the Greeks,
    Which then fragment into the blocs of power ( Diadochi ) after Alexander dies ( the great horn being broken in Daniel 8:8 ).

    In other words, the "stamping" could not have taken place at Christ's birth,
    because both events ( the casting out of those angels which followed Satan, and the fall of the Greek Empire ) had already taken place by the time of the Lord's birth...

    When the Roman Empire was just beginning to come to it's height.
     
    #7 Dave G, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You're a fine audience and I appreciate the input :)
    So,

    The goat stamped the ram before Alexander died:

    Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
    Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


    The stamping little horn comes much later (even after the latter time of their kingdom, v.23):

    Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
    Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    Either way, are you saying 1/3 of the angels fell to the earth and were stamped during the Grecian empire?
     
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  9. thomas15

    thomas15 Active Member

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    I say this in all sincerity, consider digging deeper my friend.
     
  10. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Not a helpful comment (and I really disagree with @Dave G on a host of issues) but those comments are not helpful at all.
    I don't say that in a contentious spirit, just saying.
    You can offer verses corrections etc. but just "go study more" is not an answer.
    And those kinds of answers abound on the board.
     
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  11. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Well, OK. We need to back up a bit. The woman in this vision is the Jewish-Christian church, not Mary and not the Bride of Christ. The identification is helped by those twelve stars.

    So, the time is not around the birth of Christ. The details following do not fit with such an interpretation. Mary was never chased by the Devil into the wilderness.

    And the child cannot be Jesus. He was not "caught up" (the word used elsewhere for rapture) to Heaven.

    I need to take care of other things now. Will get more into this later.
     
  12. thomas15

    thomas15 Active Member

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    George, I tried to be as respectful as possible, but since it seems to offend I'm sorry. You are correct in the larger sense, we should get our theology from the Bible.
     
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  13. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    When you have time, tell me what it is about - faster that way.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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  15. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    "However, the one third of the stars which are swept out of heaven are surely the fallen angels who joined in Satan’s rebellion."

    A) But according to Daniel 8:10, that one third are not allies of the dragon, but enemies, for he stamped upon them.

    B) If that's about angels that fell with Lucifer before Adam (that angels fell with Lucifer is nowhere clearly stated in the scriptures) what to make of its mention as the woman is travailing to give birth to Christ (presumably)?
     
    #15 George Antonios, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  16. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    @George Antonios explain why Daniel 8 and Revelation 12 have to be discussing the same thing. You make this assumption without providing any evidentiary support. Please explain how you see them as one and the same event.
     
  17. Michael Hollner

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    'Now, I know some of you more enlightened brethren have already entered the millennial kingdom, and like your Corinthian forebears have reigned as kings without us (1Co.4:8)

    I will conclude the verse......."and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you." Can we join in please?

    Epic! Well said.
     
    #17 Michael Hollner, May 31, 2021
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  18. Michael Hollner

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    'The woman in this vision is the Jewish-Christian church, not Mary and not the Bride of Christ. And the child cannot be Jesus. He was not "caught up" (the word used elsewhere for rapture) to Heaven.'

    I agree. The Bride of Christ is 'caught up' and comes forth from within the woman (Church), a remnant if you will.
     
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  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    OK. The quick answer: The one third of the stars was one third of the Jews died in the war. Josephus put the number at 1.1 million. That works out to roughly one third of the population of Judea. Estimates by historians range from 1 to 5 million. Assuming the mean is closest, that would fit. Although, this being a book full of symbols, including numerical, it could be the the "third" might not be literal. See the other occurrences of "third" in these chapters.
     
    #19 asterisktom, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    The he-goat that came from the west in Daniel 8:7 and stamped the ram ( Persia ) was Alexander...
    who afterwards died and his empire was broken into 4 pieces.
    I see that the little horn in Daniel 8:7( Philip of Macedon ) becomes large...Alexander.

    The he-goat that waxed great ( Greece ) when he was strong ( Greece under Alexander ),
    then stamps upon and breaks the great horn of the ram ( Persia ) in Daniel 8:7-8.

    Then we come to Daniel 8:9...
    Out of the one of the 4 pieces comes a "little horn"...Rome.
    The Antigonid Dynasty under Perseus of Macedon ( one of the 4 "notable ones in Daniel 8:8 and the western-most of them ) was unable to stop the advancing Roman armies in 168 B.C.
    But the Attalid Dynasty ( also of the 4 "notable ones" in Daniel 8:8 ) was allied with Rome and supported them in their conquests.

    In Daniel 8:10, this same "little horn" that originates from the 4 notable ones and becomes great ( the Romans Empire ), is associated with Satan...
    Who "casts down" and "stamps upon" a third of the host by convincing them to follow him.

    Satan "magnifies" himself, even to the prince of the entire host ( the Lord God ),
    when he declares that he will be like the Most High;
    and by Satan's servant ( the "beast or Anti_Christ ) shall the daily sacrifice will be taken away ( see Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15-21 ).

    The explanation for some of what I see is found in Daniel 8:20-25.
     
    #20 Dave G, May 31, 2021
    Last edited: May 31, 2021
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