Poll: Tongues

The trouble with most Charismatics who use this passage as a proof text for tongues is that they use it out of context over and over again, not realizing the full implications of it.

"If I ask for a fish will he give me a serpent?"
No, but he may answer: "No my child you have no need of the fish that you are asking for. In fact it would be harmful to your Christian life." It just may be that He answers No, and you don't accept it.
But along comes Satan, and he gives you a serpent, which you accept as a fish from God. Now you claim you have your fish, which is really a serpent. Satan is that great deceiver who has been deceiving believers throughout the ages. You too have been deceived.
DHK

 

Or maybe it was like this: Peter spoke and everybody heard it in their tongue.

Or maybe Peter took one phrase and said it in ten different languages before he moved on to the next phrase!!

I beleive oue God can do better than that!!

Acts2-14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Peter talked for quite awhile and it doesn't say that anyone else was preaching at the same time. I think they they all heard him in their own tongue although he ONLY SAID IT ONCE!!

So the miracle was the tongues. But also the fact that they all heard him in their own language.

Acts 2=38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They must have ALL understood him. because they were moved to ask what shall we do etc---.

selah,

Tam

 

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=83

This is pure carnality. There is nothing spiritual about it at all.
A good comparison of Biblical tongues to modern tongues:
http://www.bible.ca/su-tongues-today.htm

A subscriber stated that "Some years ago as an undergraduate, I memorized the first eleven lines to Beowulf. Occasionally I recited them to people (I still do). Once I recited them to a friend from Alabama, and she told me that if I did that back where she came from, folks would say I was speaking in tongues."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues1.htm

Why I left the tongues movement
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/17%20Reasons/17reasons04.htm

 

They heard and saw the miracle of the tongues. Peter raised his voice and spoke and said "This (referring to the speaking in tongues) is that which was prophesied. He wasn't speaking in tongues at that time. He was speaking directily to the Jews, in particular to the very ones that had crucified Christ, as he says in his message. He may have been speaking Aramaic, a common language of the Jews, or he may have been speaking (more likely so) Greek--the universal language of that day. At any rate, he refers back to the incident of those speaking in tongues, even as it were pointing to it.
DHK

 

LOL!! ROFLOL.

Sort of grasping at straws, aren't we??

He was speaking in tongues here, but not here!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhaha ah LOL!! How do we know that? Were you there? Doesn't say that in scripture!!

Have a nice day,

Tam

 

Acts 2:3Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is why they heard these Galileans (the apostles) in their own language, because they were speaking the other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

If the miracle was in the hearing, this makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm sure this will be of no comfort to him, but I agree with DHK.

The tongues of the bible were foreign languages, unlearned by the speaker.

Those who claim to speak in tongues today still have to study to learn foreign languages. Why? Because that which is complete (teleios) has come and that which was in part was done away.

Jude 3 says, "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints."

Faith comes from God's word (Rom 10:17) and it has already been delivered, once and for all. If you are receiving words, in whatever language, they are not from God.

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

The words they were speaking were being confirmed with accompanying signs. Can someone who is speaking in tongues confirm the word through accompanying signs?

Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Notice, the word was confirmed (past tense). How? Signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, just as stated in Mark 16. Since the word has been confirmed, there is no need to further receive it and confirm it.

We have all we need that pertains to life and godliness according to II Pet 1:3.

The scriptures make us complete and thoroughly furnish us according to II Tim 3:16-17.

 

Do you read the Scriptures Tam? Try again before you have such a fit, and show me through the Scriptures where I am wrong.
DHK

 

The following is the account of 120 being filled with the Spirit and then speaking with tongues.
”They Began to speak with other tongues.”

Acts 2:1-13 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

This is the beginning of Peter’s sermon (2:14-39)

Acts 2:14-17 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Notice the contrast here. The author Luke, draws attention to Peter who lifts his voice above all others. He is not speaking in tongues. He refers to those who were speaking in tongues as a separate event. He says “These are not drunken as ye suppose…” He is referring to the ones who had just spoken in tongues, not to himself at the present time. Again, he refers back to the incident and refers to it as the fulfilment of a prophecy of Joel. He does not refer to his sermon as a prophecy of Joel, but the incident preceding what he has just said as a fulfilled prophecy. Why? Because he himself is not speaking in tongues. He is probably speaking in the lingua franca of that day, which is Greek. They all could understand it. In fact that is the language that the Holy Spirit used for these very Apostles to write the New Testament in. Peter wrote his epistles in Greek. They knew the language well, as did all that were there. The event of speaking in tongues was (as Paul says it was in 1Cor.14:21,22), a sign to the unbelieving Jew. It was not primarily for understanding. They could all understand Greek. Most people today that live in other nations understand more than one language. It is the lazy western “civilized” nations that don’t.
DHK

 

Ah, DHK, it's pure joy to watch you expound on scripture.

I've had enough for one day, so I will say bye till tomorrow!

God Bless,

Tam

 

Hi DHK. I do apologize I do hope that you will except my apology it is not right that i should have affended you are enone els for that matter,but you do not have to except it it is your right, but if I am right!!!!! will I have been wrong befor we will just have to wait and see what the Lord will do on this matter bi from johnd, Oh if I am god as you have serjested my be I already know

 

apology accepted.

 

Hi DHK Would you Explane Mark 16: v 20 for us all, There seems to be some signs following Amen.

 

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. (Paul’s testimony as an Apostle of Christ)

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Hebrews 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The Bible indicates that the sign gifts, the miracles, etc. were given specifically to authenticate the apostles, to set them apart from the rest, to show to the world that they and their message was from God. Hebrews 2:3,4 bears this out quite clearly. The signs spoken of at the end of Mark 16 were fulfilled in the Book of Acts during the first century, during the times of the Apostles.
DHK

 

My friend, you are practicing eisegesis by jumping to your unwarranted conclusion from this verse. Let's look at the verse:

1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

If your interpretation is correct, then knowledge must have also passed away. If this is the case, perhaps we should shut down all of the seminaries!

Let's put the above verse in context:

1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

As valuable as God's written word is to us, it has not brought us to completed perfection, and it has not caused me to see God face to face! I still do not know fully even though I am fully known (by God). Much of our behavior as Christians and as the Church are spiritually childlike, and we've had 2,000 years to work on this stuff. Yes, we still only see a poor reflection (which is much better then NO reflection, which is what the unbeliever has) of Christ and what He has called us to be!

So we must conclude that prophecies, tongues, knowledge, and the other gifts of the Holy Spirit described together in 1 Cor. 12:28-30 are still desperately needed by God's people on earth today.

And Satan knows this. That's why he has worked so hard to pervert the practice and use of these gifts by many false manifestations.

 

Yes, and according to 1Cor.14:1-4 tongues may also be a mysterious language spoken only to God by one's spirit.

1CO 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

 

My friend, you are practicing eisegesis by jumping to your unwarranted conclusion from this verse. Let's look at the verse:

1CO 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

If your interpretation is correct, then knowledge must have also passed away. If this is the case, perhaps we should shut down all of the seminaries! </font>[/QUOTE]
If you had been paying attention and reading this thread you would have already known that everytime I have used the word "knowledge" in reference to 1Cor.13:8, I have specified it as "revelatory knowledge." I trust that you can tell the difference between revelatory knowledge and common knowledge. If you can't go back and read through the thread.

Where do you get this term "completed perfection" from? It is term that you made up, and it is rather redundant.
First keep things in context. The context is revelation--the revealed word of God. That is what tongues, prophecy and revelatory knowledge all are. They are different methods that God had of revealing his word to mankind especially in the first century. But someday, according to verse 8, these methods of communicating God's revelation would cease. And they did. They ceased when they were no longer needed, that is when the perfect or the completed Word of God came--near the ned of the first century. This is the naural reading of the passage. The context before and after is revelation--the Word of God.
What does the Word of God say:
When that which is perfect is come.
The word perfect in the Greek meanns complete. Thus, when that which is "complete" is come. The New Testament was completed at the end of the first century. Thus the temporary gifts (prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge) were done away with, or ceased to be, as the Bible promised. The Bible became complete. That is the meaning of the Old English word "perfect" and the Greek word teleiov as well.

Paul was writing. He is writing in the first person singular.

1 Corinthians 13:11-12 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The allusion to his childhood is an allusion to his spiriual maturity. He writes to the Corinthians in chapter 3 and tells them that they are still babes in Christ. They still need milk. They cannot yet digest the meat of the Word. They haven't grown up yet. Using that analogy, Paul says that when he was a child he put away childish things, that is the seeking after the more showy spiritual gifts, the gifts that would cause them to feel proud, ets. In 1Cor.12:28 he lists the gifts in order of importance and puts tongues at the end as the least important of all the gifts. And then goes on to say that greater than all the gifts put together one should seek after love. This was the greatest gift. If you have not love, it profits you nothing (no matter what you may have). In the context of love, Paul said I put away childish things--competing for showy gifts of the Spirit, like the Corinthians had been doing. That was carnality, just like it is today.

Now we see through a glass darkly. The glass is a mirror. The mirror is the mirror of the Word of God. This symbol is used often in the Word of God. God's Word reflects back our image (who we are) to us. And His Spirit convicts us as a consequence. But Paul only had a part of the Word of God--the Old Testament. He said: "Now we look through a glass darkly" (referring to the Old Testament). The completed Word of God (all the New Testament) would brightly shine forth as we read it and show us who we really are in the sight of God. How much more revelation there is about man and his need for Christ in the New Testament than in the Old. How plainly it tells us of who we are, what our need us, how our need can be met, etc.

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
--Here the Word of God is compared to a mirror, as it is elsewhere.

No such conclusion is warranted.

Quite true. The gift of tongues and of healing in particular are gifts that are imitated. They have ceased, and are not Biblicall practiced today. Like you say: Satan has worked hard to perver the practice and use of these gifts.
DHK

 

The trouble with most Charismatics who use this passage as a proof text for tongues is that they use it out of context over and over again, not realizing the full implications of it.

"If I ask for a fish will he give me a serpent?"
No, but he may answer: "No my child you have no need of the fish that you are asking for. In fact it would be harmful to your Christian life." It just may be that He answers No, and you don't accept it.
But along comes Satan, and he gives you a serpent, which you accept as a fish from God. Now you claim you have your fish, which is really a serpent. Satan is that great deceiver who has been deceiving believers throughout the ages. You too have been deceived.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]dk&h,
you try to make it sound like anyone that speaks in tongues has been decieved by satan. You try to demonize people that speak in tongues .
However on a post in another thread May 30,2005 6:56pm you said And i quote:
"there are people who speak in tongues that post on this boarde who have a very clear testimony of salvation."
Which is it ?
DO they have a clear testimony of salvation or have they been decieved by satan?

 

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clear enough. I am not saying that everyone that speaks in tongues is possessed of the devil, unsaved or anything like that. I used Tam (And I hope she doesn't mind), as an example as one who seems to have a clear testimony of salvation. That is unlike the Oneness Pentecostal beliefs which go directly contrary to salvation by grace through faith by making both tongues and baptism necessary for salvation.

I often point to various doctrines as "of the devil."
--baptismal regeneration.
--tongues
--ecumenism
--Roman Catholicism
--transubstantiation
--liberalism
etc.

They are simply of the devil, as I say, because they are doctrines which are not of God. All of the man-made doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, like Purgatory is of the devil. How can it come from anywhere else? Satan is a deceiver. He deceives people into believing wrong doctrine. There are many people that are deceived into believing wrong doctrine. This is all that I am saying. Wrong doctrine ultimately comes from the devil himself.
DHK

 

well dkh,
Are you saying are you saying that tongues is a doctrine of the devil?
Or, are you saying that a person can speak in tongues and have a clear testimony of salvation?
Are you saying tht as long as a person is not oneness and speaks in tongues that they can have a clear testimony of salvation?It appears that you are saying that tongues is a doctrine of the devil.
Your answer is still unclear to me.
I will ask you again
Which is it
1.Tongues is of the devil or
2.a person can speak in tongues and have a clear testimony of salvation?

[ June 04, 2005, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: atestring ]