pre-trib..mid-trib..post trib....

Matthew 24:29-31 telling us, immediately after the tribulation, the sun, moon, and stars become darkened, then Christ appears in the clouds with power and glory, the world will see him as they shall mourn because of him(see Rev. 1:7). Then, verse 31 saying, Christ shall send his angels to gathering all his lect by follow the shout of the trumpet(see 1 Thess. 4:15-17).

Obivously, Christ tells us, He shall come after tribulation to gathering us together.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Obviously Matthew 24-35 (and other Mount Olivet
Discourse /MOD/ scriptures) clearly
show the rapture to be pretribulation:

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

 

Preach it Bro. Ed!!!!!

 

Dr Bob,

Right On

Isn't it amazing how logical and smooth flowing the book of Revelation is when people don't turn it into some mystified allegory!

Bro Tony

 

Amen, Brother Dr. Bob Griffin -- Preach it!

During the Chruch Age God's "target" is the gentiles
(and some Messanic Jews). During the Tribulation Period
God's "target" is the Jews

Romans 11:12 (nKJV):

Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their
failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

In fact, when Jesus goes after the Jews in the Tribulation
Period Judgement, the Gentiles will be FULLY BLESSED in heaven.

The elect saints in the Gentile Age are:
chruch age Born-again redeemed Christian elect saints.

The elect saints in the Age before the Gentile Age
and again during the Tribulation Period Judgement are
Jewish Israeli elect saints.

Two age/time seperated groups of saints:
1. chruch age Born-again redeemed Christian elect saints
2. Jewish Israeli elect saints

Note both groups are also called "church". In light of eternity,
the two groups are both part of the eternal church of Jesus.

Romans 11:15 (nKJV):

For if their being cast away is the reconciling
of the world, what will their acceptance be
but life from the dead?

During the Tribulatation Period Judgement the Jewish
Israeli elect saints church will be literally (and spiritually)
resurrected from the dead into life.

BTW, did everybody know that some 7th Day Adventists say
that the MARK OF THE BEAST is Sunday WOrship?
Do you bear the mark of the beast (MOB)?

Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 18 describe the
things Jesus said on the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD).
They are parallel passages.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

this is during the tribulation period and refer
to the Jewish Isreali elect saints


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

this is the collection of the gentile age elect saints
at the end of the gentile age

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

this is parallel with Matthew 24:24.
this is during the tribulation period and refer
to the Jewish Isreali elect saints

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

this is parallel with Matthew 24:31.
this is the collection of the gentile age elect saints
at the end of the gentile age

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

without checking the context, this seems like it would
apply to either group, each in their own time

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

without checking the context, this seems like it would
apply to either group, each in their own time

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

without checking the context, this seems like it would
apply to either group, each in their own time

One more point about the two groups:

1Co 10:32 (KJV1769):

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

These are three groups:
the Gentils are NOT God's elect saints;
the Jews are God's elect saints;
the Church of God is God's elect saints.

 

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


_

10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is comple,
the Jesus will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:
This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David

 

On Monday, I will post with verses on rapture, I know pretribulational background very well, because I am ex-pretrib. Pretribulational have lot of problems and twisted verses by misinterpreting them.

Also, Spirit and Truth have rightful asking a question, who are the elect?

Pretribbers have to answer a question, who are the elect?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

The question has been
answered to my satisfaction.
Posties have not been satisfied with the
scriptural answer.
Take it up with Messiah Jesus.



Spirit and Truth: " ... for the pre-trib people, who are
not mentally prepared have to stay to the end,
it might be a little ..should we say...scary ... "

But, a pre-trib person who is also OSAS has no fear.
Even if the forces of antichrist force the mark upon you,
you stay saved.

BTW, i've never seen a postie that I though had a serious
and workable plan for getting through
the tribulation period.

 

The majority of the Jews
are unsaved here where we are
in the gentile age. The Tribulation Period
Judgement is the design of God to save
a maximum number of Jews. The Jews now
have to individually accept Jesus as Lord
for Him to be their Savior. When the
antichrist goes into the Temple in Jerusalem
and defiles it, committing the Abomination
of Desolation (AOD) then a majority ofJews will
individually see Him as the true Messiah
(not the phoney messiah of the antichrist).
Then Jesus will be their savior as well
as their Lord and Messiah. God will
protect the Jews through the wrath the
last half of the Tribualtion Period.

 

Ed edwards "BTW, i've never seen a postie that I though had a serious
and workable plan for getting through
the tribulation period. "

A workable plan through any tribulation, regardless of how bad, is to rest in Christ and be fully obedient and trusting.

Whether one believes in pre- or post....we are not guaranteed lack of persecution or even death in serving Jesus Christ. And to think otherwise is not in keeping with many Scriptures.

The workable plan, regardless of circumstances, is this:

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth...20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD...9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. 10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.
11 Teach me thy way, O LORD, and lead me in a plain path, because of mine enemies.
12 Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.
13 I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living. 14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

Psalm 64:2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity:

Psalm 143:9 Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.

Psalm 91

We are told to do this regarding making plans:

James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

I think trusting our Lord is a real workable plan, don't you?