1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured PRE-TRIB? MID-TRIB?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Oseas3, Sep 27, 2020.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    To all them which believes in suppositions like "be caught Pre-trib" or "Mid-tribe", get ready. The abomination of desolation is on the way just ahead (Daniel 9:v.27-last week), and will manifest itself very soon, so ...
    Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:v.20

    Matthew 24:v.7-8
    7 For nation shall rise against nation(this will fulfil LITERALLY), and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines (will be strong in whole earth), and pestilences (pestilences is already running), and earthquakes, in divers places.(these earthquakes will be specifics for to happen from now on, in this time of the END, and in divers places)
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    2Thessalonians 1:v.7-12
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

    12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    2Peter 3:v.9-14
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    10 But the Day of the Lord (the seventh and last Day. This Day arrived) will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.

    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED(yeah, DISSOLVED), what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (the first and second heavens) being on fire shall be DISSOLVED, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. Amen
     
  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    754
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Meh.
    I always leaned towards "Post-Trib" myself since God has a track record of not being shy about allowing saints to suffer and Jesus sort of PROMISES that we will suffer if we follow him in all of the Gospels. The so called "signs of the end times" are pretty common events. When have nations not risen up against nations? When have there not been earthquakes? When has the world not known hunger and disease?

    A-Mil also makes some sense if we view everything leading up to Jesus' return as the "tribulation" and "last days" of other verses.

    Pre-Trib based on the division within the structure of Revelation seems more "wishful thinking", and both Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib sort of seem to have too many returns of Jesus to align with simpler verses in other parts of the Bible.

    That said, living in readiness for our Lord's return is never a bad idea.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,128
    Likes Received:
    468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was raised on pre-trib, but as I have read the Bible, I don't see any "rapture" in scripture. I see God returning when all his saints have been brought to redemption. After this, Jesus returns to justly burn the world in fire and prepare a new heaven and earth for his family.
    @atpollard has, in my opinion, correctly identified the trials of the saints, globally, in this world. No one can deny the great suffering of the saints, throughout history, at the hands of wicked people. Even today we see brothers and sisters being horribly martyred. Their blood cries out to God before the throne room. Their tribulation was very real.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    754
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Would it be fair to say that in the following Chronology:
    1. Jesus returns and the saints are "caught up with Him in the air"
    2. Jesus reigns for 1000 years on the old earth
    3. New heaven and Earth
    ... that you do not believe in #2 as a literal event separating #1 and #3?

    (The "Millennial Kingdom" is what always caused me problems reconciling the Daniel-Revelation eschatology that many people teach with things Jesus said like ... Matthew 25:31-46 )
     
  5. poor-in-spirit

    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2018
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    27
    Faith:
    Baptist
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,128
    Likes Received:
    468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well ya got 4, 5 and 6 so I'm not sure where 1, 2 and 3 are located.
    However, rapture is not found in the Bible. The elect, upon the earth who remain, will be caught up to meet us who return with our King. The 1000 year reign is a mystery to me as it just pops up in Revelation without any connection anywhere else.

    Ultimately, this doesn't bother me as the reality is that God reigns.

    My concern with pre-trib is that it's extremely US centric, as though all prophecy is connected with events in the US and therefore tribulation cannot come to the US until Jesus takes believers to heaven. I think...tell this to my brothers and sisters who are facing great tribulation today. How foolish to think severe tribulation doesn't exist today. Of course it does and of course it's as bad as anything shared in Revelation for these brothers and sisters.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    754
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [Mark 13]

    [1 Corinthians 15:50-53 NASB] 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    [1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB] 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


    Sure sounds like a "rapture" to me. What makes Jesus' return - the Resurrection of the dead - meeting Him in the air ... not a rapture?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,128
    Likes Received:
    468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus returns when all the saints have been redeemed. Yet another reason to preach reconciliation to all the world.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Great tribulation though will be the ultimate extension of satan to his evil works, as God will permit him to go pretty much all evil he desires tight until Second Coming!
     
  10. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    In my view you should study better the specifics signs to happen in this end of the times, these have nothing to do with "pretty common events" as you said. None of all the signs listed in Matthew 24 are common events, as follow:

    Verses 1-2 refer not to the end of the times,
    but it is an example of not common signs, for your understanding.
    v.1 - Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and
    his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    v. 2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. This prophecy of the Lord fulfilled LITERALLY in the year 70AD, and Israel was banned from its land for 1878 years, from 70 to 1948, in fulfilment the prophetic words of JESUS, and of Moses - Deut.28:v.15-68. These events had nothing to do with common events, the Word is God and what happened, it happened by the power of God's Word-the Word is God and what He says, it happens of course.

    Verse 3 - And as JESUS sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and
    what shall be the sign of thy coming? and of the END of the
    world ?

    What JESUS said to the disciples has nothing to do with common events, as is written in the verses 4 - 5:

    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    About false Christ, JESUS said to the Jews:
    John 5:v.43 - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name (AN IMPOSTOR, A DECEIVER) him ye will receive. This will happen now, henceforwards, in the days to come. About this false Christ, a false messiah, Jesus revealed who he is, and John did write, saying: Revelation 13:v. 11 - I beheld another Beast (a second Beast) coming up out of the earth(earth here is Israel); and he had two horns like a lamb (a false lamb, a false messiah), and he spake as a Dragon.
    The Jews will belive in him and what JESUS said will fulfil LITERALLY. The false messiah will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
    2 Thessalonians 2

    Verses 9-14: JESUS said:
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    verses 6-8 - JESUS said:
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

    By the Spirit of Christ, you will discern that JESUS is not speaking of one or two earthquakes as you may think, as if they were common events, no, absolutely no.
    JESUS is warning us, even we that are living in the end of the times, that He will MAKE to happen divers, yeah, divers earthquakes, and they will happen in divers places now, even now, in the END of the times. It is He who will make to happen them, understand? What I know not is where they will happen. It is good to get ready.

    As I said,
    pestilence is already running, as said Isaiah: Behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:v.20

    Famines will be strong in whole earth from now on, day after day.

    For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: G-7; G-20; UN; EU; among others will be DISSOLVED.

    8 All these things are SIGNS of the END of the times, and mainly the SIGNS of JESUS's coming. But they are the beginning of sorrows.

    Get ready.
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

    "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

    From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

    "So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

    As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. Which would all fall around 5820 on the Jewish calendar. However… Isaac Newton notes, and I must add along with any of my calculations....

    "It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,154
    Likes Received:
    2,312
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Strange that he would know the date that Jesus Himself did not know while upon the earth!
     
  13. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I did add....

    “Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast.” - Isaac Newton
     
  14. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I would make the call that I believe the rapture of the church within the next 30 years, noting, my calculations could be off. I believe a rapture must occur otherwise how are we going to return to reign with Christ 1,000 years if we are still here?
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    2,799
    Likes Received:
    754
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ... and do WHAT different than if Jesus will return in 100 years but I will die in a bus accident and stand before him in 2.5 years?
     
  16. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes, since the beginning of the Church, starting by the Apostles, and "throughout history" God's people have suffered "at the hands of the wicked people", as JESUS and the Apostles always warned would go to occur. JESUS said: Mark 10:v.29-30:
    29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
    30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands,
    with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    Paul wrote to Timothy saying:

    But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
    Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

    Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2Ti.3:v.10-12

    But now, in this topic, we are talking EXCLUSIVELY of the persecutions and sufferings of the END of the times, as was prophesied by the Lord in accord Matthew 24 except the destrction of the temple in the year 70AD, that has fulfilled LITERALLY, whose happenings are described in the topic. We are not speaking of prophecies and things fulfilled throughout the history,
    but the prophecies and things which will fulfil yet and henceforth. The topic is about prophecies of the END of the times, for example, Daniel 8:v.16-19:
    16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the END shall be the vision.

    18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

    19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

    May our LORD God bless and keep us, and give us His protection. Amen.
     
    #16 Oseas3, Sep 28, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  17. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes, what is written in the Bible is about the extreme corruption and apostasy of the end of the times (1Ti.4:v.1 and 2 Thes.2:v.2-4), as was in Sodom and Gomorrah, or even in the time of Noah, this explain why Jerusalem is the great city that is spiritually called of Sodom and Egypt.

    And in fulfilment the prophecy of this time of the end, Jerusalem will be trodden by the Gentiles through a powerful religious system by forty and two months
    (Revelation 11:v.2), it because the Dragon will give to the Beast of sea, that is FIRST BEAST- the OLD FIRST BEAST-, his Power, and his Seat, and great Authority-Revelation 13:v.2).

    But the Dragon will be thrown out of the current heavenly environment in which we are and serve JESUS as his disciples-
    Ephesians 1:v.3. Note: The Dragon is the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he will be cast out into the earth, and his angels will be cast out with him-(the angels of the Dragon are revealed in 2Corinthians 11:v.13-15).

    Revelation 11:v.15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. And Revelation 2:v.25-29:
    25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the END,
    to him will I give power over the nations: (The END will come when... 1Corinthians 15:v.24-28 among others)

    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    28 And I will give him the morning star.

    29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
     
  18. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    What is the message of the last trumpet? The trumpet shall sound, no? The message of the seventh angel is this: Revelation 11:v.15-18:
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come-JESUS-; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

    18 And the nations were (will be) angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth. (This prophetic message of Revelation will fulfil LITERALLY from now on).

    Get ready.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,128
    Likes Received:
    468
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We are in the end times. We have been in the end times since Christ Jesus went up in the clouds. The end will come when the last saint is reconciled with Christ and seated with him in the heavenlies.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Oseas3

    Oseas3 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2019
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes. Revelation 13:v.5-9
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.


    Daniel 12:v.10-12: -
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the ... the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Yea, 1.335 days, i.e. 75 days after the END of the 2nd 1.260 days period. (1260 plus 30 (1.290) plus 45 days - 1335)

    Why is blessed he who waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days? He is very very blessed because it is IN THE DAY 1335 that will be the meeting of Jesus with His Church. Halellujah!

    Doctrines of pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib have been mere speculations only. What prevails is the written Word of God, the Word that God revealed by His true prophets.

    Nothing will happen except according to this word revealed to Daniel, as to the day when the encounter of Jesus with his Church will take place.

    In Christ JESUS, KING of kings and LORD of lords

    Oseas





     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...