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PRE-TRIB

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tamborine lady, Oct 26, 2003.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Tamborine Lady,

    I agree with your post, but among other things, do not forget to factor in Romans11:25. When 'the fullness of the Gentiles comes in' God is done with the church. Why? Because He will take His church to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17]

    I agree that other sinners will becomes saved as noted in Revelation 7:13-14. These also with the church will be included as His people. Yes, they will be killed. They will become part of the listing among the Great Tribulation martyrs.
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Much of the Church has been left in tribulation like circumstances, and this is part of preparing her for the marriage. It's only us who think God keeps us in comfort, because that's largely our experience. He only removes us before his final wrath "filled up" in the seven bowl judgements. There are no more righteous seen on earth after that. To say that the saints seen before that were those left behind from an earlier rapture leads to two raptures, which are not supported in the prophecy.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Much of the Church has been left in tribulation like circumstances, and this is part of preparing her for the marriage.

    I agree with the above statement that all of the church goes through difficult times, testings and temptations.

    The Great Tribulation is yet future and will be an unprecidented world-wide great social upheaval that will deliver great, great trouble. Although the Great Tribulation will begin with the first seal being broken in Revelation 6:2 none of us have seen to date the first Trumpet Judgment which will be 'hail and fire mingled with blood' nor have we seen 'the third part of the trees burned up and all the grass' burned to a crisp. [Revelation 8:7] Have any of our posters see 'the third part of the sea turning to blood?' The third Trumpet Judgment is that a 'great star fell from Heaven burning and it fell on the . . . . fountains of waters . . . . making them 'bitter.' Has anyone seen this to date? The fourth Trumpet Judgment will be 'the third part of the sun was smitten {by God} and one third of the moon, and one third of the stars so they were darkened.' The fifth Trumpet Judgement will be that 'a star will fall from Heaven to the earth.' Has anyone felt the rocking and reeling of the earth because of the asteroid impact? The sixth Trumpet Judgment will result in one third of the inhabitants of the earth being killed. It sure will make for the largest funeral service of all time. And the last of the Trumpet Judgments will be the announcement that the punishments on the worldlings will be over.

    The Seal Judgments will be first. [Revelation 6:1-8:1] Then the Trumpet Judgments mentioned above and after that the Vial Judgments which begin in Revelation 16:2-16:17:21]

    When the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments have appeared in our world, then sinners will have come through this most horrible time called, God's Great Tribulation. [Matthew 24:21] The difficulties and tribulation that we have in our world today are but the beginning,tremors leading to His Great Tribulation.
     
  4. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    The "Great Tribulation", properly speaking, is the 5th seal, and I believe the seals represent the unfurling of events, which have occurred in graduating scales thoughout Christian history, rather than necessarily singular future events (this is how to reconcile preterism, historicism and futurism). It gets much worse as you point out in the trupmets. The Trumpets are mainly human and possibly natural occurences that partly fulfil God's wrath, while the bowls will be completely God's wrath (15:1) through supernatural events. It's the latter He spares the church from.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer in his book, "Systematic Theology" Vol. IV in the chapter, "Prophecy Concerning the Gentiles" says on page 342,

    'Revelation 6:1-17:21. This extended Scripture would hardly be understood other than as the details of God's final dealing with Gentile nations. Though judgment must fall upon Israel, those judgments are not emphasized here. That people seen both shielded and protected, as it is promised in their behalf (cf. Jer. 30:7); and there is no reference to the Church on earth in any of these scenes, since she will be saved-not while passing through the Tribulation {Great Tribulation}, as is Israel's lot, but---from the Tribulation having no part in it (cf. Rev. 3:10).

    'Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.'

    John experiences what the Church experiences. In all his description, he is not in the Tribulation himself, but is a witness of things both in Heaven and on earth. Thus the Church will be saved from it and yet witness precisely what John saw, and will hear what John heard. The Seals, the Trumpets, the Vials and the woes are progressive aspects of Divine judgments falling upon Gentile peoples punitively-not upon either Jews or Christians.' {end quote from Dr. Chafer}.

    Dr. J. Randall Price (Th.M. O.T. & Semitic Languages, and Ph.D. Middle Eastern Studies has lived in Jerusalem and has done graduate studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He says in his book, "Jerusalem In Prophecy" p. 358,

    'Jerusalem in Prophecy' Tribulation Period (7 years) First Half of the Tribulation (3 ½ years) First Quarter of First Half:

    'The Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel, bring peace to Jerusalem and Israel (Daniel 9:27; Isaiah 28:14-15).

    The Jewish Temple is rebuilt in Jerusalem, perhaps as a part of the provisions of the covenant made with the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27; Revelation 11:1).

    The Seal Judgments are opened, bringing judgment on the world, although no specific effects are mentioned for Jerusalem (Revelation 6:1-17; 8:1-2).

    Dr. C.I. Scofield makes these comments.

    The Great Tribulation is the period of unexampled trouble . . . . Involving in a measure the whole earth (Rev. 3:10); it is yet distinctively "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) and its vortex Jerusalem and the Holy Land.'

    Dr. Paul Enns, "The Moody Handbook of Theology" p. 141.

    ' "The Tribulation". John gives extensive coverage to the Tribulation (Great Tribulation) {Revelation chapters 6-8:1}, bringing the triumph of the Beast {meaning the antichrist} 6:1-2; war 6:3-4; famine 6:5-6; death 6:7-8; martyrdom 6:9-11; and celestial and earthly convulsions 6:12-17. The Seals apparently continue through to the end of the Tribulation. The seventh Seal initiates the seven Trumpets (meaning the Trumpet Judgments).' end quote. The good doctor means that some of these Seal, Trumpet and Vial judgments run concurrently making the world a real unlivable place to survive on during God's unprecidented judgments.

    Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, "Basic Theology" p. 542 says,

    1. The first seal judgment (Rev. 6:1-2). ' . . . Here, it is quite obvious that the opening month of the Tribulation {meaning the Great Tribulation} will see nations conquered by the rider on the horse. Some think this rider is the 'man of sin, head of the Western coalition of nations. His method of conquest, however, we would call "cold" war. Clearly, this description coincides exactly with the picture of the beginning of the Tribulation given in I Thessalonians 5:3-it will be a day when men are talking about peace and safety. This may indicate that we are living in the days immediately preceding the Tribulation . . . '

    Dr. Berrian is saying, 'The white horse and rider initiating the Great Tribulation will have a bow with no arrows and at first will captivate the entire world as being the great peacemaker, but in reality will turn on the world at mid-Tribulation time and start his program of 666. [Revelation 13:11-18] I concur with the other doctors of the church that the wickedness of the unthinkable Great Tribulation has not started in our world. Yes, we have martyrdom and starvation in pockets of our world right now but this monster the Antichrist of the Great Tribulation has not yet revealed himself, though he may be born or be setting up a peace initiative for Israel.

    The spirit of antichrist has been in our world since the Apostle John's writing of his manuscript on the Isle of Patmos. I John 4:3 indicates that this is a fact. We have experienced antichrists in all of history even in our lifetime, but the monster of the future Great Tribulation still hides beneath his shroud, until Almighty God releases him in all of his ferocity.
     
  6. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG] Well all those are very good points, but they are written by MAN, which leaves room for error.

    As for being "kept from" stuff, the 3 Hebrew children were kept from the fire, Daniel was protected in the lions den, Noah on the ark,etc.

    yet they were right there in the midst of the problem! ;) :D

    God will protect His own, as we go thru the trib.

    And I have a question: What IF, and I'm only saying IF, what if you are wrong, and there is a mid-trib or a post trib catching away? Will you be ready for that? Can you handle the bad stuff?

    Will God protevt you in the midst of trouble????

    Tam,

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones New Member

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    Ray,

    I have a question. Why is Jesus' words to the Philadelphian Church assumed to represent the rapture of the overall Church?

    I've never heard anyone explain what was special about this Church as compared to one of the other seven. Why not look at Church in Smyrna? The words are very different there:

    Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
    Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
    Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Reading these verses, one could come to a very different conclusion than that a pre-trib rapture.

    So again, why the Philadelphian Church? Other than it fits the pre-trib view of things...

    Ed
     
  8. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Ed Jones,

    I think you ask a great question.

    Dr. Chafer made the quote and reference from Revelation 3:10. The rest of his statement I have no problem with as I read it. I merely copied Chafer's whole quote.

    Like you might be saying, one might guess that any reference to the Great Tribulation might better have been placed somewhere beginning with Revelation 3:14-22, or not at all.

    Again, I think Chafer was trying to use this verse to back up his view of the Great Tribulation. I personally, do not know if his contention is valid by using said verse.
     
  9. Ed Jones

    Ed Jones New Member

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    Ray,

    It's just that Dr. Chafer is not alone. I've seen a number of people from the pre-trib position use Rev 3:10 as one of the proofs that we will not go through the tribulation. But I can't figure out why.

    There doesn't appear to be anything unique about the Philadelphian Church or anything that would tie it to believers on earth at the time of the rapture.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?


    Ed
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

    Yes. No Christian advocated a Pre-Trib Rapture theology before Darby ca. 1830, and it's a sketchy heresy advocated by those who embrace fundamentalist dispensationalism, reject the congruency between the OT and the NT, read apocalyptic allegory as if it were an enlightened account of history, embrace the earthly outlook of first century Judaism, deny that Christ's kingdom was established on Earth with his first advent, and who insert the parenthetical parenthesis of 2,000 years in Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel 2, the vision of the four beasts in Daniel 7, and Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9.. a parenthesis God kept from Daniel as God pulled the blinders over Daniel's eyes.
     
  11. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Carson Weber,

    I too, believe that I am in the Kingdom of God which is spiritual and that one day because I believed in Jesus I will enter Heaven. [II Cor. 5:8] Many of the Christian Churches that dot our nation and world, including Catholic ones portray to us the visible Church in our world.

    But, believing in this above fact does not take away from Jesus future 'restoring again the Kingdom of Israel.' [Acts 1:6] This last bracketed term is different than the Kingdom of God that you so often remind us about. John 1:11 tells us that the Israelites reject Christ at His first coming as He trusted the arms of His mother, Mary. Between His first coming and the rapture is this period called the Church age that was never heard of by the Major and Minor Prophets of the O.T. [Ephesians 3:1-6] The church age is an interpolation between the proffered Kingdom of Israel at His first coming to us, and the one that will appear right after Jesus Second Coming of Christ. Romans eleven simply and clearly explains that the Israelites will be restored in the future age. {vss. 23, 25-26}

    Revelation chapter twenty will be ' . . . the restored Kingdom of Israel,' spoken about in Acts 1:6-7. The church age is about us; the restored Kingdom of Israel is about Jesus, His land Israel, the erection of His Millennial Temple and especially the salvation of all Israelite people. [Ezekiel 43:7;Romans 11:26] This future Ruler in Israel is Jesus our Lord. [Micah 5:2]

    The Apostolate believed in the gathering of the saints to Heaven as described in I Thess. 4:17, and in today's theological arena it is called the rapture of the Church. During the Dark Ages much truth was lost because the Roman Catholic Church was setting up their works for grace program. When Saint Peter's Cathederal was being built, the caste of clergy pumped the poor and Biblically deprived Catholics of their money in order to construct said Cathedral. Tetzel said to the masses of people, 'As soon as coin in coffer rings, the soul from Purgatory springs.' Indulgences to commit sins were freely sold to the Catholic clientele for a gift of money to the Church. No spiritual enlightenment bred false views of the Lord and spiritual ignorance among the simple people.

    Thank God that a few centuries ago the ignored truth has been restored to Christ's holy Church.
     
  12. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Thank God that a few centuries ago the ignored truth has been restored to Christ's holy Church.

    Because, you know, everyone just ignored the truth, both Protestant and Catholic, both Orthodox and Donatist, both Monophysite and Chalcedonian.. for ten... nooo... twelve... noooo... fifteen... nooooo.. sixteen... nooo... EIGHTEEN CENTURIES. How dumb of them!
     
  13. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    The fact that the Philadelphia church is specifically promised protection proves that there is no rapture of the whole Church at that time. Christ had told us to watch and pray that we be counted worthy to escape all these things. (Luke 21:36) He didn't say that if we were saved, we would all automatically be taken away from it all. Our escaping is based upon our WORKS, while the rapture is attached to our salvation, which is based on FAITH.
    As for the dispensations:

    Which Dispensation is "parenthetical"?

    Pre-tribulationism is driven by Dispensationalism, which divides history into the age of "Law", and the age of "grace", or the Church age. A problem is, that people describe the church age as some sort of parenthetical period, like an afterthought, that God stuck in the middle of his true scheme, the age of Law. Then, the Church is raptured, returning the world to the age of Law (Salvation is no longer by faith in Christ, but by keeping the Law, including avoiding the mark of the Beast; seems to explain certain OT passages where God says He will punish people in the last days for breaking the Sabbath and other ceremonial laws). So this theory is used to undergird pre-tribulationism. But actually, just the opposite is true: God's true plan is grace. It was the period of Law that was the parenthetical age begun a few thousands of years after man's creation, to show man that He was fallen (Gal. 3:19, 24, Rom. 3:20) and therefore in need of more than just a system of law, or God's direct presence in the Temple. And keep in mind, the OT scriptures were aimed at Israel, before it was fully revealed that God would bring in a new dispensation. This would explain the references to OT commandments in last-days prophecies.
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    This misses the biblical concepts of types. The church established at Christ's first coming was His "kingdom on earth" in the sense that He is King over us as a body. But this is not the Kingdom foretold in numerous prophecies, where sin is completely put away, and Christ rules over all nations. That is the future fulfillment of what was begun in the church.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the second part of Eric's post. But Christ never said that in the church was "His Kingdom on Earth". Rather he argued that HE was not of this World and that NEITHER were His followers (see John 17).

    He taught His followers to pray "Thy Kingdom Come" and we find that the "Saints take possession of the kingdom" only after the long ages of persecution following the fall of the Roman empire into 10 segments where 3 of the 10 are defeated.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Brother Eric B,

    The church age is an interpolation between the Covenant of the Law and the Kingdom Age which is the Millennium. God always knew that the age of the Church would happen but it was not revealed to the O.T. prophets as noted in Ephesians 3:3. Paul calls it a 'mystery.' [Ephesians 3:3-6]

    Eric said, 'The fact that the Philadelphia church is specifically promised protection
    proves that there is no rapture of the whole Church at that time. Christ had
    told us to watch and pray that we be counted worthy to escape all these
    things. (Luke 21:36) He didn't say that if we were saved, we would all
    automatically be taken away from it all. Our escaping is based upon our
    WORKS, while the rapture is attached to our salvation, which is based on
    FAITH.'

    Ray is saying, 'My belief is that the seven churches of Revelation have only to do with those ancient church which for the most part do not exist today. Bringing in Revelation 3:10 opens the idea of a second interpretation for our day as to eschatology. I do not think we are allowed to do that.'

    Eric said, As for the dispensations: Which Dispensation is "parenthetical"?

    Ray is saying, 'As explained above the Church Age is the interpolation.

    Eric is saying, 'Pre-tribulationism is driven by Dispensationalism, which divides history into the age of "Law", and the age of "grace", or the Church age. A problem is,
    that people describe the church age as some sort of parenthetical period,
    like an afterthought, that God stuck in the middle of his true scheme, the
    age of Law.

    Ray is saying, 'The Christian Church was/is not a second thought with Almighty God; but He did not mention it in the O.T. documentation.

    Eric is saying, 'Then, the Church is raptured, returning the world to the age of
    Law (Salvation is no longer by faith in Christ, but by keeping the Law,

    Ray is saying, 'You misunderstand. After the rapture, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming, Christ will set up His earthly rule of 1,000 years which He repeatedly tells us in Revelation chapter 20. Salvation from Genesis to the New Heaven and New earth will always have been by faith in Jesus, even in the theocracy of Christ as revealed in Zechariah chapter fourteen.

    Eric was saying, ' . . . including avoiding the mark of the Beast'

    Ray is saying, 'Since the church will be in Heaven during the Great Tribulation on earth only the lost will have to decide if they will die for the faith and become martyrs or keep their lives and at death will be ushered off to Hell by God's will and Providence.

    Eric has said, ' . . . seems to explain certain OT passages where God says He will punish people in the last days for breaking the Sabbath and other ceremonial laws).

    Ray is saying, 'I am not familiar with your passages of Scripture so I cannot speak to this issue.

    Eric is saying, 'But actually, just the opposite is true: God's true plan is grace.

    Ray is saying, 'Agreed. Even when the unsaved come to Jerusalem in the Kingdom Age salvation will be by God's grace. You are not familiar with this interpretaion of Zechariah so you wrongfully think these people will be returning to the former covenant. When they worship at His throne [Zechariah 14:17] they will come to trust in Jesus as their Messiah. Messianic Christians also believe in this Scriptural view.

    Eric is saying, 'It was the period of Law that was the parenthetical age begun a few
    thousands of years after man's creation, to show man that He was fallen (Gal. 3:19, 24, Rom. 3:20)

    Ray is saying, 'Since we most often agree I hate to take a different position that you. The conscience that God placed in each human being was enough for even people from Genesis times until the Law for them to understand that they were rebelling against God. Every person was born with the image of God within and knows the difference between right and wrong.

    Eric said, ' . . . and therefore in need of more than just a system of law, or God's direct presence in the Temple.

    Ray---I agree with your above statement.

    Eric is saying, 'And keep in mind, the OT scriptures were aimed at Israel, before it was fully revealed that God would bring in a new dispensation.

    Ray is saying, 'The people of the O.T. never knew that the Gospel would be revealed to pagan Gentiles, and neither did the prophets understand this until St. Paul revealed this in Ephesians 3:2-5. And notice that God created dispensationalism in that He had the Apostle Paul refer to dispensations in Ephesians 3:2a. So do not be too firm about there not being different ages in which God dealt with the Jews in one way, through the Law, and Gentile and Israelites under the better covenant in His unique way.

    This new way of approaching God through faith in His Son completely apart from the Law, was totally new even to the Apostle Paul until God revealed it to him. Beside the passages above just a couple of verses down in Ephesians 3:9-12 Paul speaks of the 'mystery' {of the Gospel} and that it was hidden from everyone until it was revealed to St. Paul.

    'To the intent that NOW unto the principalities and powers in Heavenly places might {now} be known by the CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God; according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord. In whom we {now} have boldness and accesswith confidence by the faith of Him.' Notice, also to which I know you will agree that our access as Christians is not through Mary or the canonized saints, but exclusively through Jesus Christ. [Ephesians 3:12; I Timothy 2:5] Mary and the saints are the add-on theology of the Magisterium and the long line of popes.

    Brother Eric B,

    The church age is an interpolation between the Covenant of the Law and the Kingdom Age which is the Millennium. God always knew that the age of the Church would happen but it was not revealed to the O.T. prophets as noted in Ephesians 3:3. Paul calls it a 'mystery.' [Ephesians 3:3-6]

    Eric said, 'The fact that the Philadelphia church is specifically promised protection
    proves that there is no rapture of the whole Church at that time. Christ had
    told us to watch and pray that we be counted worthy to escape all these
    things. (Luke 21:36) He didn't say that if we were saved, we would all
    automatically be taken away from it all. Our escaping is based upon our
    WORKS, while the rapture is attached to our salvation, which is based on
    FAITH.'

    Ray is saying, 'My belief is that the seven churches of Revelation have only to do with those ancient church which for the most part do not exist today. Bringing in Revelation 3:10 opens the idea of a second interpretation for our day as to eschatology. I do not think we are allowed to do that.'

    Eric said, As for the dispensations: Which Dispensation is "parenthetical"?

    Ray is saying, 'As explained above the Church Age is the interpolation.

    Eric is saying, 'Pre-tribulationism is driven by Dispensationalism, which divides history into the age of "Law", and the age of "grace", or the Church age. A problem is,
    that people describe the church age as some sort of parenthetical period,
    like an afterthought, that God stuck in the middle of his true scheme, the
    age of Law.

    Ray is saying, 'The Christian Church was/is not a second thought with Almighty God; but He did not mention it in the O.T. documentation.

    Eric is saying, 'Then, the Church is raptured, returning the world to the age of
    Law (Salvation is no longer by faith in Christ, but by keeping the Law,

    Ray is saying, 'You misunderstand. After the rapture, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming, Christ will set up His earthly rule of 1,000 years which He repeatedly tells us in Revelation chapter 20. Salvation from Genesis to the New Heaven and New earth will always have been by faith in Jesus, even in the theocracy of Christ as revealed in Zechariah chapter fourteen.

    Eric was saying, ' . . . including avoiding the mark of the Beast'

    Ray is saying, 'Since the church will be in Heaven during the Great Tribulation on earth only the lost will have to decide if they will die for the faith and become martyrs or keep their lives and at death will be ushered off to Hell by God's will and Providence.

    Eric has said, ' . . . seems to explain certain OT passages where God says He will punish people in the last days for breaking the Sabbath and other ceremonial laws).

    Ray is saying, 'I am not familiar with your passages of Scripture so I cannot speak to this issue.

    Eric is saying, 'But actually, just the opposite is true: God's true plan is grace.

    Ray is saying, 'Agreed. Even when the unsaved come to Jerusalem in the Kingdom Age salvation will be by God's grace. You are not familiar with this interpretaion of Zechariah so you wrongfully think these people will be returning to the former covenant. When they worship at His throne [Zechariah 14:17] they will come to trust in Jesus as their Messiah. Messianic Christians also believe in this Scriptural view.

    Eric is saying, 'It was the period of Law that was the parenthetical age begun a few
    thousands of years after man's creation, to show man that He was fallen (Gal. 3:19, 24, Rom. 3:20)

    Ray is saying, 'Since we most often agree I hate to take a different position that you. The conscience that God placed in each human being was enough for even people from Genesis times until the Law for them to understand that they were rebelling against God. Every person was born with the image of God within and knows the difference between right and wrong.

    Eric said, ' . . . and therefore in need of more than just a system of law, or God's direct presence in the Temple.

    Ray---I agree with your above statement.

    Eric is saying, 'And keep in mind, the OT scriptures were aimed at Israel, before it was fully revealed that God would bring in a new dispensation.

    Ray is saying, 'The people of the O.T. never knew that the Gospel would be revealed to pagan Gentiles, and neither did the prophets understand this until St. Paul revealed this in Ephesians 3:2-5. And notice that God created dispensationalism in that He had the Apostle Paul refer to dispensations in Ephesians 3:2a. So do not be too firm about there not being different ages in which God dealt with the Jews in one way, through the Law, and Gentile and Israelites under the better covenant in His unique way.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Sorry for the double printing under the one post.
     
  18. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Just like all the epistles were originally addressed at particular ancient churches, but are still for us today, Christ says "listen to what the Spirit says to the Churches", and this is for all of us (else it wouldn't be in there), and Revelation is primarily about future events leading to Christ's return, and as you are not preterist, you would have to acknowledge that this must have a dual antetypical future meaning as well.

    I have heard many dispensationalists speak of a return to the age of Law upon the rapture. Especially in response to Sabbatarianism which uses mentions of the Sabbath or other parts of the OT Law (both during the tribulation-- as in Matt.24), and after, as in Jeremiah, and perhaps also Zechariah, IIRC) to say that the Law is still and has always been in effect. The orthodox dispensationalists countered that this was simply a return to the age of Law after the end of the Church age. I myself know that salvation has always been by faith, and that's what I was pointing out. That's why the period of Law was what was the interpolation.

    I don't think that. As I've said, it's many dispensationalists who seem to describe it that way, at least regarding the tribulation period, before the final covenant at Christ's return begins.

    What I was saying was based on the passages cited-- the Law was added because of sin. Man may have had conscience enough to know they were rebelling, but God still gave them the Law to point out their sin. So there is no real disagreement there.

    I never said that either, and my statement quoted acknowledges dispensations.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Feasts [Ezekiel 46:11] the sacrifices [vs. 13] will be memorials and remembrances of the the covenant of the Law, and will be observed on the Jewish sabbath as duly noted in [12d] This all, of course, is explaining what the Messianic Kingdom Age is going to be like with Christ receiving all of the worship and adoration. [43:5 & 48:35] Praise God we are not just talking about doctrine; Jesus will be among us! What a great, great day that will be.
     
  20. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    My view is closer to yours in this respect. What I was pointing out was that only in a rather loose sense can we see the Church as the Kingdom on earth. It is a body of people who have Jesus as their King, so it can be called a kingdom, just as it is called a "nation" (1 Pet.2:9). But otherwise, you are right, that the true 9eternal) kingdom is not of the world, etc. so I don't see how the preterists can think that this church age (including all its sin and corruption) could possibly be the eternal Kingdom following the second coming.
     
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