Pre-tribulation rapture

I already showed the answer several times. But here is "yet another example"

"I stand at the door AND KNOCK" Rev 3 is not speaking of two events separated by 7 years.

"I am the way the truth AND the life" John 14 is not talking about Christ being truth AND seven years later being LIFE.

"COME unto Me AND I will give rest" Matt 11 DOES NOT mean that 7 years after you come to Christ He will give you rest.

The whole POINT in coming to Christ is to receive that promised rest from our burden of sin -- not wait 7 years for it.


Christ said He would "COME AGAIN AND RECIEVE us" -- the point of His "coming again" is to RECEIVE us.

And Paul says "AND SO in that way shall we EVER be WITH the LORD". 1Thess 4.

You are trying to insert 7 years into "AND" and it is not working.

Soooooo ---- I ask "again" , if you can bring yourself to objectively go through the exercise of assuming that the NATURAL reading of the text is correct -- THEN show how this causes even MORE direct confrontational issues with scripture than your PTR model clearly has.

(At some point you have to let yourself do that exercise).

in Christ,

Bob

 

If we try to slip 7 year gap into each of these "ands" we have a problem in John 14

John 14
1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself[/b], that where I am, there you may be also.
4 ""And you know the way where I am going.''


5 Thomas said to Him, ""Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?''
6 Jesus said to him, ""I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

 

What you say is clouded by what you
likely mean:

IT seems to me one is saying to me:

//I want you to assume that I am right
AND that the way I read it is the
only possible NATURAL way to read
it//

BTW, you can prove something not so by one
exceptional example. You have to prove
all cases true to prove something true.

//(At some point you have to let yourself do that exercise).//

I've been arguing that this New Age statement/PC = politically
correct statement is IN SERIOUS ERROR. If you want to
sound like a New Ager just say that. If you want to be
PC just say you are searching for the truth. But if you ever
find the truth -- you will immediately be labeled 'BIGOT'.

I found the Truth with a capital 'T' 56 years ago in April
1952. The Truth is not a warm fuzzy feeling making idea
(sounds to much like 'an ear tickler') -- the Truth is
a person and that person is Messiah Yeshua, Christ Jesus,
The Chosen one: Iesus.

So I've already done that exercise.
And Sir Bob, you misunderstanding of what I said
doesn't in the least diminish my Hope That Jesus is going to
come get me and take me direct to heaven AND that
He will do it in enough time for me to train to be
one of the horsemen described here:

Revelation 19:14 (NASB):
And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

I hate horses. But I take my Grandaughter (10) who lives with me
twice a week to horse tending/riding lessons.
But I am going to ride on those horses and follow Jesus in
the Forth Coming of Jesus when He comes to whip Devil booty
and to set up a physical/literal Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
on a physical/literal earth with physical/literal subjects.


(In case nobody noticed, the post-tribulation only arrival
theory has a problem I've noted: who are all those horse
riders Jesus comes with?

 

I already posted your obvious challenges --

Note your challenges --

-1000 is not actually one thousand
-First is not really the first resurrection event -- but the second first resurrection.
- Contiguous timelines have to be sliced up
- "AFTER the Trib.. he will gather his elect" has to be "reworked" in Matt 24.
- "IF I go -- I WILL come again and recieve you" John 14:1-3 -- is turned into ONE leaving and then the ONE return has to be sliced into ONE leaving and MULTIPLE returns.

It is like you took a wrong turn at some early point and then had to swim uphill on every bible text dealing with this sequence ever since.

--------------------

it is left as an exercise for the reader to observe that these are where "you need a lot of explanation and hand-waiving" to solve your problems.

You may be perfectly satisified with all that rationalizing that you clearly are doing each time you run up against one of the problems listed above. I have never questioned your devotion to your position.

My argument is to have you take the more objective approach of not doing that for just a second - simply ACCEPT the statements as they read for even just a minute and then show me where "A problem LIST" develops just as I have shown above - for my view.

You seem to want to argue that nobody is going to notice the problem list I have given for your view above even exists so you have no way to find such a list for my view.

You have argued repeatedly that you are satisified with the answers you have found for the problems I have pointed out. I do not doubt your satisfaction with your solutions (no matter how convoluted I find them to be) -- not even for an instant.

If that "no problems for me to notice" solution is your answer and you are happy with it - then fine I will not press the point with you.

Maybe someone else would like to take a crack at it?

in Christ,

Bob

 

I already showed how none of these 'challenges' are
valid, not one of them. Each is based on a false obscuration
(and you know I escew obscuration ) of terms and meanings.
(By contrast you vainly say you are the one using
the simple reading???)

Then I have big obstacle with you, which you have yet
to admit -- I BELIEVE IN A POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE
and a POST-TRIBULATION RESURRECTION.
By contrast you BELIEVE IN A POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE
and a POST-TRIBULATION RESURRECTION ONLY.

So a lot of what you say I must agree with you about.

And I'm still no sure you figured these definitions out
(though I know by likelhood you have):

Resurrection1 - a general raising of dead elect chosen
saints and giving them a new body (this is done by Jesus)
- based on 1 Corinthians 15:49-57

Rapture1 - a general raising of the living elect chosen
saints and giving them a new body (this is done by Jesus)
- based on 'raptos' in the Latin of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 -
'caught up' in English.

[I try to use the above definitions when possible]

Resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed by
a rapture1 held post-tribulation

Rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed by
a rapture1 held pre-tribulation
(some say mid-trib or pre-wrath)

What is the 'first resurrection' of Revelation20:4?
I say it is a Rapture2 plus Resurrection2

What is the 'second resurrection' implied
by Revelation 20:4. I haven't defined it - have I?

Resurrection3 - a resurrection of the un-just
(i.e. un-elect. un-chosen, and un-saints)
followed by The Second Death (Revelation 20:14)-
AKA: The Second Resurrection

 

As I said --

Ahh now we get to the good stuff. This is what I have been asking for -

Indeed - I read about "THE First resurrection" in Rev 20 and just as you find it to be post trib -- so do I.

Indeed -- this happens as we see in 1Cor 15 and in 1Thess 4 and in Rev 20 at the coming of Christ.

This is THE event that Peter says all the church is to focuson.

1Peter 1:13 "Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ"

Paul says that we should focus on "THE RESURRECTION" in 1Cor 15 and in 1Thess 4.

In 2Cor 5 Paul points to THIS SAME resurrection as the entire focus of all saints to receive their heavenly eternal bodies.

in John 14 "IF I go away I WILL come again and RECEIVE you to Myself".

This IS the "big deal"

This is what we see in 2 Thess 2 "that day WILL NOT come until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed"

this single focus of the entire NT church is what we see in Matt24 "AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will gather his elect"

Agreed. All this happens in that ONE event - THE First Resurrection.

I find it "instructive" that when the Bible says "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" (in fact this is the ONLY place in all of scripture where the Bible uses that term) your view is forced into saying "NOPE- RESURRECTION 2"!

(When I say "your view" I really don't mean "Ed's view" I mean PTR which is clearly the most popular view on this forum)

A simple correction.

By accepting the fact that "the SEcond Resurrection" needs to be "Resurrection2" after the 1000 years you instantly get to the right conclusion which means only ONE resurrection in John's future that is Pre-Millennial and that is "THE FIRST one" already identified in Rev 20 which is the SAME one that we see in 1Cor 15, 2Cor 5, 1Thess 3, Matt 24, and THE FOCUS of the entire NT church as Peter says in 1PEter 1:13.

Now in all of this what you did not show is what you would call "The BIG OBSTACLE for Bob". What text in your list poses a "big obstacle for my view"??

Let me have it sir -- both barrells please! :type:

in Christ,

Bob

 

on this subject of pre-tribulation rapture

first is it Biblically?
If so, please give the clearest verse in the Bible where this is taught.
And just for fun...when did men(women) began to believe this view?

 

I find it 'instructive' that you have never seen
a two pronged fork. It is like a 4-pronged fork
but it only has 2 prongs. It is one fork
with two prongs. Once at a fancy feed the
FIRST FORK had 2 prongs,
the SECOND FORK had 4 prongs
the THIRD FORK which was the LAST FORK
also had 4 prongs.

Sorry, my view is NOT forced to say
FIRST RESURRECTION really means
SECOND RESURRECTION.

1) the term 'Second Resurrection' isn't
in the Bible - it is only implied

2) I see no reason to point out the
problems with your viewpoint when
I've successfully taught my viewpoint
to most everybody but one or two.

3) I have noted several scriptures that
show two different parts (time-wise)
of the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Matthew 24:30&31 (KJV1611 Edition):
30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne
of man in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes
of the earth mourne, and they shall see
the Sonne of man coming in the clouds
of heauen, with power and great glory.
31 And hee shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his Elect from the foure
windes, from one end of heauen to the other.

Logic seperates verse 30 & 31.
'all the Tribes of the earth mourne'
Man, I'm looking for the Lord to come
get me and take me home - I'll be rejoicing.
Matthew 24:30 is about the Lord coming to
get the Bad guys; Matthew 24:31 is about
the Lord coming to get the good guys.

 

HP: What does God do with the bad guys in verse 30?

 

Pre-trib Rapture?

Of course. Just to throw a little gasoline on the fire here -- what else do you think the people in Thessalonica were afraid they had missed? If the next thing to happen was the Lord Himself returning, they would have been rejoicing to hear about it. Instead they were terribly upset that they had missed something.

What else but the Rapture? Especially in light of Paul's explanation that they had not missed it and why not...

 

In 2Thess 2:1-7 Paul writes that "some have disturbed you" teaching that the Lord has already come. "That day will NOT COME until after the man of sin is revealed" and the falling away of the church occurs - according to Paul.

Instead of saying "BEFORE the man of sin is revealed that day will occur" - in 2Thess 2 we see the exact opposite is claimed.

Further - in Matt 24 "AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days ... he will gather his elect"

Instead of "BEFORE the tribulation of those days ... he will gather his elect".

And then in Rev 20 it is the FIRST resurrection that starts the 1000 years NOT the "second".

EACH time the PTR needed a little help it was the POST trib rapture that got it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

It doesn't say, in Matthew 24:30 - the Bible does
say elsewhere -- gotta put it all together so it
makes some sense in the Divine Purpose for Mankind.

Don't you find it strange that 'gathering of the elect'
in Matthew 24:31 and 'our gathering together unto him'
in 2 Thes 2:1 are both contrasted with the arriving
of Jesus in Power and Glory before the whole world?

1. Jesus is going to come and get His Church
some day -- i.e. He is either coming to rapture me or
coming to resurrect me.

2. Jesus is going to come whip the Devil & Antichrist
some day.

I believe it is the same day.
Others believe it is the same day.
I'm sure you can find others who believe otherwise.

I believe it is the same 'day' = 70th week of Daniel.
Some think it is the same 24-hour day the same
date at one point on the earth.
Others think it is the same 48-hour day (the same
date over all the earth).
I even found one on BB who argued the
same 8 hour day (modern work day).

But I think the Bible prophecy 'day' is
'the appropriate time'.

 

I've already explained that.
Here we go again (I was hoping to put this in Vol 2 of this
topic, but the PTB didn't respond)

---------


The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
------------------------


Obviously 2 Thessalonians 2 is about the
PTR (pretribulation rapture/resurrection).

 

Amen, Sister Helen -- You are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

Notice in 1 Thess 4 & 5 it is mentioned twice we are to
encourage each other with this news: JESUS IS COMING TO
GET US first. I can't se how Jesus coming to whip Satan
down is the best news in the word -- pretty good , I guess,
but the best part: JESUS IS COMING TO
GET US first - doesn't matter if we are dead (resurrection)
or alive (rapture).

\o/ Praise the Lord! \o/

:wavey: The Baptist Smiley says "Hey Jesus - pick me up also!"

 

In 2Thess 2 you are careful NOT to highlight "and OUR Gathering together TO HIM". You clearly want to suppose that the "coming of the LORD" 2Thess2 is NOT what Christ said "I will COME AGAIN and receive you to Myself" nor the coming of Christ back for His saints in 1Thess 4.

But how can such tactics with scripture ever be convincing?

in Christ,

Bob

 

In your view we should ignore the fact that these texts are all speaking of the same thing

1Thess 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

"If I GO away... I will come again" John 14.

"Concerning the Coming of the Lord... and our GATHERING together to Him" 2Thess 2.

And I would argue that many do follow the course you are suggesting -- I just don't know why they would do it.

 

Actually I did highlight "and OUR Gathering together TO HIM"
by using italics. As well "the falling away comes first," was
highlighted with italics -- both of them refer to THE SAME THING.

I did it back on a system that didn't have underlines.
Thank you for pointing it out. I'll upgrade the post.

 

I ignored nothing.

The "Coming of the Lord" AND
"our Gathering Together to Him" are two different
sets of events.

You have shown how you believe: Here is what I
believe:
--------------------------------------------------------
these texts are all speaking of the same thing

1Thess 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

"If I GO away... I will come again" John 14.

"Concerning ... our GATHERING together to Him" 2Thess 2.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

The continuation of this discussion (and a new poll) follow
in this Location:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=43965

please join us there

 

I don't care what the Vulgate says in 1Thess4:17. The Greek means the saints living and resurrected with Jesus' Coming will be seized together in clouds - in awe and while being changed and receiving incorruptibility - will be seized together while meeting the Lord as He comes in the air, to this earth, as He promised and we shall see Him as He is. Words cannot really describe it, so Paul says, we shall be "seized all in clouds" in wonderment. 'Rapture' is wrong. If anywhere else in Scripture one could find just one more indication in that direction, it could have been worth a second thought. But there is only the one awe-inspiring "CLOUD OF WITNESS" of the Scriptures of the single unrepeatable once for all Coming Again of Christ.