Pre-tribulation rapture

Did they interpret the Bible? Ellen White may have claimed so, but her prophesy was proven to be false. I am talking about specifically on the Re 12, and God showed me Re 12 as the starting point to correct the misunderstandings.

You sound like someone who never read thru the Bible yet:

Deut 17
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deut 19 : 15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Read Zech 4 ! You repeat the argument without reading Zech 4!

You are repeating what you read from the writings by PTR claimers, which is a typical rhetoric, saying there will be 2 prophets at the endtimes.
If you believe that the whole church will be raptured, will the 2 prophets be left out? Will they come from the heaven by flying? Then, you may be believing in UFO ! If they will be left out, where are they now? Who are they? I already urged you to read thru Zecharia 4, which tells exactly 2 Candlesticks, 2 Olive Trees, 2 anointed. Please read it thru, then you will find them exactly the same as Rev 11.

Zech 4:12And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
Zec 4:13And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these [be]? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth

(www.crosswalk.com)


Many false prophets came into this world claiming that they are 2 witnesses in Revelation. There are huge deceptions there.

 

BGTF,

You are very much far away from this portion of Truth, though you are very good in many other aspects of Truth. What a contrast there !
Again, you are very much accurate about the Salvation, and in pointing out the problems of this generations etc. I have no doubt about your salvation at all. I admit that you are a true believer. However, the total layout about the Eschatology is far away from the Truth, which is a big deception in this era where many true believers are trapped into.

Please tolerate my harsh scoff a little further.

1) KJV Re 9 and 16
Re 9:
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts
Re 16
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


2) PTRV ( Pre-Tribulation Rapture Version)


Re 9:
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues millions of them repented of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Indeed repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts

Re 16
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed( Praised) the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented their deeds.

That's how millions, millions of new Believers came out of the Tribulation.

1) Millions of Jews repented and accepted the Gospel without preachers miraculously after the Rapture of the whole church ! They didn't need the Preacher, nor the foolisheness of preaching, because they were so much genius. They proved Romans 10:14 was wrong!

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

They proved 1 Cor 1:21 was wrong!
[FONT=&#48148]The Gospel is preached thru the foolishness of preaching ( 1 Cor 1:21),[/FONT]

After the rapture of the whole church, nobody was left to preach the Gospel, but Jews were born again by the Holy spirit, without any preachers.

[FONT=&#48148]2) They proved Apostle Paul was stupid, and God Repented what He did in the past, because Jews were miraculously converted, and preached the Gospel to millions, millions of Gentiles depite the disasters and the Tribulation ![/FONT]


Millions of Jews repented first, then they preached the Gospel to the gentiles thru Internet, thru TV despite the persecution by the Beast and by the Harlot. They deserve the immediate Rapture again because the Wrath of God doesn't fall upon the Believers. There should be another Rapture before the coming of Jesus. Are they just the second class believers?

 

BGTF revealed another misunderstanding about Re 6 and 12.

Re 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I already told that ch 6 is the introductory overview and ch 12 is more concrete Revelation of materializing the prophesy.

Re 6 already portrays the End times of the world.

Re 12 shows this:

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Re 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


1) Is the man-child in Re 12 different from the Lord Jesus in Re 19?
If you don't identify the same, you are blind spiritually!

2) Did the church generate Son of God? or Did Israel give birth to Son of God?

Who has begotten Son of God?
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Mt 1:
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

If you know the Greek text, you will find this translation is insufficient.

" the one in her is begotten by the Holy Spirit" is correct translation, because the same word : gennao" is used for " beget, begot, begotten"

Jesus was born ( not conceived by fertilization with the ovum of Mary, but born as a complete Human Embryo already before He came out of Mary)

So, if you interpret the Woman in Re 12, you will find no contradiction there.
The woman carried the believers and was protected in the wilderness for 1260 days which was the period of Prophesy by Jesus, the same period will be worked out by the Holy Spirit, and it represent the period from the Birth of Christ until the Rapture of the Church embraced by the Woman.

Again, you can find that the Revelation is not written in the order of Time Sequence, because Re 6 shows us the end times, Re 12 shows the Birth of Jesus, Re 11 talks about the Crucifixion of Jesus ( Re 11:8-11)

You have no idea about the general overview of the Revelation. sorry to tell you.
You are like saying Jesus of Gospel Mark is the immitation Jesus, while only Jesus in Gospel JOhn is the genuine.

BTW, the fake Christians are mentioned in Re 11:1-2

John was asked to measure " Temple of God" " Altar" "Worshippers therein"
Temple of God may be 144,000 equivalent to the Judges in 20:4
Altar means the Martyrs ( Re 6:9) equivalent to the beheaded in 20:4
True Believers who refuse the Idolatry are the worshippers therein.

Then the court outside the temple is given to the Heathen Unbelievers ( 11:2) They look like a part of the temple, but they are not believers but just the fake believers. They will form a part of the Unbelievers persecuting the Believers, and these will tread down the Holy City for 42 months. ( which part of 7 years, the first 3 and a half years or the latter part of 7 years? think about it!)

Do you read this?

Re 20

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and the ones which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ( I added the ones, refer to other translations) 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Live again is the expression for the Resurrection ( Re 2:8)

So, only 3 categories will participate in New Millennium, The believers who are given the Judgment, Martyrs, Believers who rejected the Beast. How about the common believers who lived and died peacefully in 17c?

So, you can find the similarity between Re 11:1-2 and Re 20:4-5.

Re 11:1-2 doesn't belong to Re 11, but to Re 10. The chaptering in 16 century wasn't done accurately on this part.
Then you will find Re 10, Re 11, Re 12 are exactly same in describing the 2000 years period, as Gospel Mt, Mk, Lk are the same for Jesus earthly ministry.

Where are we living now in Revelation. You can find several spots which indicate our times. If you know them, show me!

 

Can you be honest with us? Tell us when you feel when this will take place.
I am not looking for exact dates, but a range. Lets say, sometime before 2018. (1948 plus 70 years). Or maybe you feel it will happen "in our lifetime". Please exlain.

Thank you

 

In Both NT and OT there were many false prophets. The Bible answer was always to "TEST the prophets" it's solution was never "ignore all prophets".

And so today - we test them as the Bible instructs and we also follow the teaching of 1Cor 12 through 14.

Many people today "claim" to have some kind of insight from God - and many do -- but that alone does not make them a prophet.

As John 16 claims for ALL Christians "the Spirit of truth will GUIDE you into all truth".

Hence - we are not Catholics.

in Christ,

Bob

 

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed[/b], the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

 

Neither one --

"Historicist"

No they did not.

The Tribulation "the GREAT Tribulation" in Matt 24 is not about the wrath of God.

TRIBULATION

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.[/b]
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For [b]then there will be a great tribulation[/b], such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

1 and 2 Thessalonians show there is a pre trib rapture.

FWIW...there are more martyrs for their faith today, than at any point in history. The "dark ages" will be nothing compared to the the last 3.5 years of the great tribulation.

 

Jesus, the Son of God is the Creator of Israel, and He was before Abraham was ( Jn 8:56-58). Moreover, Israel themselves have been rebellious after the ascension of Jesus. How could they be protected in the wilderness? By Holocaust or by Crusade?

Were Isrelites washed by His Blood?
Re 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

The Remnants of Her seed are these:

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Israel killed Jesus, and persecuted the Believers. How could you say her offspring keep the commandments of Jesus?

1. You are admitting that Revelation is not written in time sequence as I mentioned Re 6 showed the end of the world, heavens rolling away, the great judgment, then Re 12 shows the Ascension of Jesus.

2. It is the first time that I hear that 12:5 means the Rapture of Jesus together with the Believers.
In the same chapter you can read the Believers keeping faith unto death ( v 11), then there will be the Remnants of her seed keeping the commandments of Jesus. So, you must be able to find out the contradiction immediately there. If there were total Rapture, how did the new believers start to believe? Where is the saying that the Jews accepted the Truth?
Your theory is self-contradictory.

BGTF, please remember this. You are far away from the truth while you boast about your theory which has no biblical grounds, which I still believe is a wicked deception by Satan. Satan is very much dilligent while the Believers are lazy with the wrong idea of PTR. Please remember God is patient to you too.

 

I don't deny that the persecution of Christians continues - just not in the realm of the Roman empire as it was going on in the Dark Ages.

2Thess 2 makes it clear that the rapture does not happen until AFTER the man-of-sin is revealed.

IF the "Tribulation" vs of Matt 24 were to be spun around to mean "no tribulation for the church" then the scripture is already broken due to the dark ages AND to the present persecution in Asian and Arab countries.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Tribulation "the GREAT Tribulation" in Matt 24 is not about the wrath of God.

TRIBULATION

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.[/b]
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For [b]then there will be a great tribulation[/b], such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

Why is PTR theory wrong?
PTR ( Pre-Tribulation Rapture) is believed by so many Believers. Most of PTR claimers whom I have met so far are very good Christian believers and famous Christian writers such as Erich Sauer, JN Darby, Louis Talbot, William MacDonald, and so one ( I think even Dr. Dehaan claimed it too).
I don't know where they got such idea from, but often they start from the misunderstanding that the Believers are protected from the Wrath of God.
Indeed, all the believers are protected from the Wrath of God.
They do not know how to distinguish between the Wrath of God and the Persecution by the Enemies, here start the problems.

If anyone should claim the PTR, they must explain clearly how the millions and millions of people became so much strong believers coming out of the Great Tribulation in Re 7:13-16, while people do not repent despite the disasters caused by the Wrath of God. ( Re 9:20- and 16:11)

Also, they brought the excuse that Jews preached the Gospel and they produced new believers among the gentiles. Where did they get this kind of story? If the whole church is raptured, Holy Spirit will not remain. How did the Holy Spirit start the new ministry? When the NT church started, there were believers already on the earth, and 120 people gathered in Jerusalem, and moreover more than 500 people who saw Jesus resurrection witnessed the Truth. After the Rapture of the NT church how would they start the new ministry without Preachers?
If the Holy Spirit would start the new ministry, why did God take all the believers up to heaven without leaving some of them to preach the Gospel to the new believers?

I have heard and read all the theories of PTR and found they are absolutely groundless, and they do not know how to interpret the Revelation.

 

BGTF, your theory is evolving. Read your post #21:


Christ was not birthed out of the church, for that passage to be only about Christ, the woman must only be literal Israel (the descendents of Jacob), if the woman who is persecuted is only literal Israel, then literal Israel is specifically dealt with in the tribulation. If you believe that, how then can’t you believe that God isn’t finished with the Jew?

That passage is also symbolic of the visible church/true church, and tells you that the true church was caught up unto God. Verse 5 tells of the rapture of the true church (those really saved).


Your previous post #21 told that the church was caught up unto God. Now you are saying the Woman is the church.
Now you are saying the woman includes the Unbelievers. Do they keep the commandments of Jesus unto death?
YOur theory is in chaos, and you must work very hard to salvage your theory!


You may want to say that the woman was the OT church and the NT church which include the True believers in any era.
What are the common for both OT and NT churches? They were led by the Holy Spirit. But you cannot say that the church gave birth to Jesus Christ. You cannot say that Israel kept the commandments of Jesus throughout the ages. There will you be in dilemma.
If you say that the woman meant the Church, then you will find that the church continued to be proteced by God until the end-times, and she is persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and a half time which means 3.5 times. In that case the chapter disproves PTR. The church will pass thru the Tribulation !
Your own interpretation disproves your theory.

If anyone interpret the Woman as Church, he or she is not far from the Truth, because Church is the Bride of Christ, embodiment of Temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.

You are now admitting that the child was born in ch 12. then the chapter writes about the end-times. Where do you find the Rapture there?

You are saying that the church was raptured at the time of AScension of Jesus. Are you real on this world? Are you left behind the Rapture? Because you are saying that the church was already raptured along with Jesus in Re 12:5!
I am doubting about your sanity again !

Most of the PTR claimers that I have met so far, do not have their own understanding about the Revelation. But they just parrot what they read from other people's writings. They have no idea about the general overview of Revelation.

 

PTR Theory is really ridiculous which has deceived millions of Christian believers and so many great Christian believers are trapped in there too.
Therefore I would explain some of my interpretation of Revelation.

Re 6:
I already mentioned this chapter is the Introductory Overview of the 2000 years NT period until the end of the World.
v 2 explains the man on the white horse. Many people misunderstand that this man is Satan. But I would say he is Jesus Christ.
He conquered at the Cross, and continues to conquer the world for 2000 years, being crowned with Crown of Righteousness, Crown of Glory, taking the bow shooting the Arrows of Word of God.
He fights 3 other horse riders, on the Black Horse, Red Horse, Green Horse which represents the Power of Weapons, False Religion, Poverty etc.

Re 6 also portrays the end of the world, judgment of kings

Re 10 ( ch 10:1-ch 11:2)
A mighty angel was treading upon the sea and upon the earth ( 10:1)
He is mighty because Gospel preaching is so important and therefore God has assigned the job of preaching Gospel to the mighty angel. He is treading down the sea where the Beast is coming up from, and the earth where another Beast is coming up from.
Then he gave the little book to John. It was sweet in the moth, but bitter in the belly, which means that the Words of God is sweet to hear and to accept, but bitter when we practice and perform the commandments.
Then Gentiles tread down the Holy City for 42 months. 42 months means 3 and a half year.
11:1 is very similar to 20:4. Temple of God, Altar, Worshippers therein are to be measured, which may mean 144,000, Martyrs, True believers are to be measured for the next Millennium, while the outer court( Fake Christians) are delievered to gentiles. Fake Christians are dealt with the same as heathen unbelievers.

Re 11:3-
2 Candlesticks, 2 Olive Trees, 2 Witnesses are the same as Zech 4.
They are not any specific persons, but all the True believers on this earth are 2 Witnesses. They finish their ministry and may be almost killed. They are revived after 3.5 days, and raptured by the callings of God.
Remnants will glorify God. I believe 3.5 days mean 3.5 years.

Re 12
Jesus was born, but ascended unto God, then woman had to flee.
Woman was protected by God for 1260 days ( which I believe is 1260 days). After the Dragon was expelled from Heaven, the dragon persecuted Woman for 3.5 times ( a time, times, half time). Remnants of the woman was ready tp fight Devil.

All 3 chapters explain 3.5 years, 3.5 times. 3.5 days. Ch 12 mentions ascension of Jesus, and Rapture of the Church people. All 3 chapters are talking about the same situation for 2000 years. ch 11, 12 talk about the 3 and a half years.

 

the LORD told Abram (later Abraham):
Genesis 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):

And I will blesse them that blesse thee,
and curse him, that curseth thee:
and in thee shal all families of the earth be blessed.

I claim this promise by saying:

May the G-d of Abraham, G-d of the Jews:
please bless the nation Yisrael both in
the Land and throughout the World
in the dispersion, as it
enters the Sabbatical Year: 5768.
(this start at sundown in Jerusalem
on our 9-month/12th day/2007CE
and so will the Rosh Hashanna celebration.)

I'm going to get a blessing from God!
Say AMEN & you can have one also.

(side note to those who believe a
6,000 year period will be followed by
the 1,000 year Messanic Kingdom:
we only got 6,000 - 5,768 = 232 years
to go! )