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Predestination and Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Mark Corbett, Sep 12, 2017.

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  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Most Christians sooner or later struggle with questions about predestination.

    Many Christians don’t like the idea of predestination because it feels unfair. I think the problem is not with predestination itself, but with a lack of understanding about how predestination is related to foreknowledge. Once we understand what the Bible says about predestination and foreknowledge, it is easy to see how predestination is actually a good and encouraging truth which is entirely consistent with God’s justice, love, and even with our free will.

    There are two Bible passages which explicitly link God’s foreknowledge with predestination. The first passage is Romans 8:29.

    [​IMG]

    This passage shows us several things about predestination and foreknowledge:
    1. The foreknowledge is knowledge related to people, as indicated by the phrase “those whom.”
    2. This foreknowledge in some way logically precedes and leads to predestination.
    3. The passage does NOT say that God predestines who will have faith.
    4. The passage DOES say that God makes a destiny for us whom He foreknew, and that destiny is to become like Jesus.

    The second passage which links foreknowledge and predestination is 1 Peter 1:1-2.

    [​IMG]

    This passage shows us some truths similar to the truths we saw in Romans:

    1. Being “elect” (which pretty much everyone agrees is the same thing as being chosen or predestined) is based on God’s foreknowledge. That’s what “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” means.
    2. The passage does NOT say that God chooses who will have faith.
    3. The passage does indicate that election has to do with both sanctification and forgiveness. Sanctification is the process where we become more and more like Jesus, so this is the same thing that Paul described in Romans 8:29 using the words “to be conformed to the image of His Son”.

    What Specific Foreknowledge Leads to Predestination?

    The Bible does not specifically tell us. We can’t say for sure. But I think it is possible that Paul and Peter were both referring to the fact that God knew ahead of time who, given the right opportunities and circumstances and help from Him, would freely accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    In other words, I don’t think the Bible is teaching that God predetermined who would have faith in Jesus. Rather, I think the Bible is teaching that God knew ahead of time who would have faith in Jesus. Then, based on that knowledge, God made a plan (a destiny, a predestination) for these people that their sins would be forgiven and they would be transformed to become like Jesus, and they would live in glory with God forever.

    When you understand predestination in this way, you immediately realize that there is nothing unfair about it. In fact, you see that it is an amazing act of love. Even though we have faith in Jesus, we never could have saved ourselves. We never could have changed ourselves from being sinful people to being people who are like Jesus. But God makes sure this happens for everyone whom He knew would be willing to accept Him.

    My destiny is not in doubt, and neither is yours, if you believe in Jesus. Predestination is wonderful! Thank God for predestination! God has chosen our destination, and it’s a really good one!

    What Does This Have to Do With Calvinism and Arminianism?

    You don’t have to understand the terms “Calvinism” and “Arminianism”. These terms are not in the Bible. However, since many Christians use these terms, you might want to know a little about them. These terms refer to two ways of understanding how predestination works. There’s more to Calvinism and Arminianism than predestination, but predestination is an important part of the issue.

    The view I just shared above has a technical name: “conditional election.” This view, which represents my best effort to understand the Bible on this issue, is consistent with Arminianism. That doesn’t mean that I am committed to the full system of beliefs which are related to Arminianism, but it does mean that I lean toward an Arminian understanding of predestination.

    Calvinists understand the Bible to teach “unconditional election.” They believe that God chose ahead of time who would have saving faith and who would not, and that God’s choice had nothing at all to do with anything He knew ahead of time about what each person would do or would be like.

    Since I Lean Towards Arminianism, How Do I Feel About Calvinists?

    I thank God for my brothers and sisters in Christ who are Calvinists. Although we disagree on some points of doctrine, we share a common faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are on the same team! I have been greatly blessed by the preaching, teaching, and writing ministries of men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem, both of whom are Calvinist. For me, learning from them is like eating a fish. You eat the meat and throw out the bones. In the case of these men, I have found them serving up huge amounts of delicious, nutritious fish meat which rarely contains more than a few small bones. They are advancing the work of God, and I thank God for them. I feel the same way about less famous Calvinists I know.

    It’s fine to discuss issues like this, and they are not unimportant, but I hope Christians will not divide over issues like Arminianism vs. Calvinism. Sadly, some do. I am hoping we can have a discussion that will be peaceful, respectful, and helpful, even as we may strongly disagree on some issues. I also hope that those who are relatively new to this issue will feel free to share thoughts and questions so that the discussion is not dominated by a few of us who have already thought about this a lot.

    Giving Thanks Together

    Finally, all of us, Calvinists and Arminians alike, should thank God for His great grace, and specifically, that He made a plan for our salvation and uses His great wisdom and power to ensure that plan succeeds.


    This OP is a modified version of a post on my blog.
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Election by God is based upon Him first choosing to save us, period, and that his predestinataion happens based upon Him electing us unto eternal life in christ!
    His Foreknowledge is in a direct and active sense, not merely passive in that he foreknows and observes who will get saved by accepting jesus, but foreknowing as being the very cause of why they are receiving jesus, as it refers to Him personally selecting out and knowing for Himself his own people!
     
  3. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    Thanks for replying.

    How do you know that the meaning of foreknowledge you give above is correct? If what you are saying is correct, than it is hard for me to see any difference between foreknowledge and predestination or foreknowledge and election. But this doesn't seem to fit Romans 8:29-30 very well, nor 1 Peter 1:1-2. Consider the Romans passage:

    Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
    30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    There is a chain of events.
    glorification follows and is dependent on justification, but the two are not identical.
    Likewise, justification is not identical to predestination.
    So why should we interpret "foreknowledge" to be identical to predestination?

    Besides that, the most obvious, simple meaning of foreknowledge is just to know something ahead of time. My interpretation fits that meaning quite naturally.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is not the biblical explanation of foreknowledge though, as that is based upon Election/predestination, as saved due to it be the very will of God worked out into saving the sinner, not just abstract knowledge of them getting saved
     
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  5. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    You're simply asserting that. In the OP I gave a specific explanation, based on two passages of Scripture, of why I believe the most accurate way to understand the biblical explanation of predestination is conditional election. You have yet to give any evidence to support your assertion.
     
  6. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    In the opening post I focus on two passages which directly discuss predestination and foreknowledge. However, I also believe that conditional election is a much better fit with passages which do not directly address predestination and foreknowledge, but which do explicitly state that God desires all to be saved. An example is this passage:

    NIV 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
     
  7. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    You won't get anything byt assertions out of him/her.

    But I'm curious how you have such an elaborate doctrine about something you say we can't know.
     
  8. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    JamesL, that is a fair question.

    Of course I didn't exactly say we "can't know". I said "we can't say for sure". The position I describe is the one which I believe is most likely correct.

    Why even discuss it if I feel it is only "most likely to be correct"? I think that seeing the possibility of conditional election may help people in a number of ways. That is certainly my prayer in discussing this.

    This brings up another point. I would say that I am not Calvinist in two ways:

    1. Most Calvinists I've heard or read treat some points of doctrine as being much more certain and clear than I think they are in Scripture. To hear them speak, it sounds as if the Bible is just as clear about compatible free will and irresistible grace as it is about the resurrection of Christ and the goodness of God. To me, this is very unhelpful.

    2. I think the most likely understanding of how predestination works is different from the Calvinist explanation.

    Grace and Peace, Mark
     
  9. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    that's fair enough

    At one point, you likened your position on Predestination to that of Arminianism, but that's not the case. I realize you also stated that overall you are neither.

    Just like the Calvinists, the Arminian position is that we are predestined to believe in Jesus, that God looked forward in time, saw that you would believe, and then set that as your destiny ahead of time.

    There does seem to be an "Arminian" shift toward a view which says predestination is unto being comformed to the image of Christ, but it seems to me that people with a wide range range of views are embracing the label of a camp they don't align with, simply because most see there really being only two options.

    that is an absolute certainty.
     
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  10. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    I agree that there are more than two options! That's an important point.
     
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The scriptures tell us that we are born again to new life in christ due not to the will of man, but of God, also, that all those whom, jave been appointed unto life in Christ received Him.
    The Lord opened the hearts and minds of them , noy they decide to do that to themselves.
    Romans 8 will not work as per your understanding on this issue!
     
  12. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    I believe that one of the verses you are referring to this verse:

    John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

    Based on this verse, alone, taken out of it's immediate context and the broader context of John's gospel and the whole Bible, that verse could indeed mean that God chooses who will be born again WITHOUT CONSIDERATION of whether or not a person would choose to receive Him. But it is dangerous to take verses out of context. As soon as we read the first part of the sentence, the meaning becomes more clear:

    John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
    13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

    To me, these verses appear entirely consistent with the type of conditional election based on foreknowledge which I described in the OP.
     
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  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    What conditions do God-haters meet in this election?
     
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  14. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    They are helped by God's common grace and wooed by His powerful love initiated by Him and then they choose to receive what is freely offered to them. Or in one word: "faith".
     
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    But faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22

    How can God haters have a fruit of the Spirit?
     
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  16. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Active Member

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    A good and fair question. Here are several Bible translations of Gal 5:22

    CSB Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,

    ESV Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

    NIV Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

    The word translated "faith" (pistis), like most words, has a range of meaning. It can indeed refer to initial saving faith. But is can also refer to trusting God in all kinds of situations. And, as the ESV and NIV translate it, it can also mean "faithful". So there is really nothing in Galatians 5:22 which contradicts conditional election.

    You ask good questions. Here is one for you. If election is unconditional and grace is irresistible (those two views being a part of normal Calvinist teaching), and God loves all people, why does He not save all people?
     
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  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    There is no 'if' to it, election is unconditional. All the conditions that God requires were met by the Christ via is life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and will be completed upon His second advent. We couldn't meet these requirements, so God sent His Son to meet them for us. Now, He can be Just and the Justifier of the ungodly.

    I don't believe God loves all ppl. God is immutable, so if He loves all ppl, and then on the day of judgment pours His wrath out upon the ones He loves, then He is no longer immutable. In Romans 9, we see plainly that there are objects(vessels) of mercy and objects(vessels) of wrath. The objects of mercy were taken from the same lump that also had objects of wrath. This can be attested by Ephesians 1:4 where we were chosen in Him before the creation of the world. Then in Proverbs 6:16-19, we find seven things that God hates, and the last two speak specifically to ppl.
     
  18. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    whosoever will may come
     
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Except that the scriptures over and over again state that one cannot come to Jesus, its the drawing from/of the father that allows them to now come, and that those who are drawn and called and saved are just the ones Jesus died for to atone for their sins!
     
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the problem is that left just our own sinful natures, we would always choose not to come!
     
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