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Featured Predestination and Means

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    This thread is motivated by an email I recently received criticizing me for being a staunch proponent of the preaching of the Gospel.

    Romans 10:17 states that " faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ", i.e. the Gospel. This is a truth that should be precious to all Christians, but especially Calvinists.

    One frequent criticism made about Calvinists is that they proclaim the Gospel in vain. After all, since only the Elect will be saved, and God has chosen His elect from eternity, preaching the Gospel is unnecessary. What these critics do not understand is that God has ordained the means by which the Elect are called to repentance and faith. Saving faith comes by the preaching of the Gospel*. God's word is a living thing, and is capable (through the work of the Holy Spirit) to convict of sin and regenerate the heart of man. Calvinist preachers understand the powerful weapon they wield when they proclaim the Gospel. The Puritan's understood this; Charles Spurgeon understood this; and Calvinist preachers today understand this.

    *Any method of evangelism that roots itself in scripture is ubiquitous with preaching the Gospel; i.e. print or online media.


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    #1 Reformed, Jul 15, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The message of the Gospel is the very power of God unto salvation, as that is the ordain means to accomplish salvation in the Elect!
     
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  3. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I need to amend my OP. The criticism I received via email for being a staunch proponent of preaching the Gospel is because I am a Calvinist.
     
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  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    That's because they believe the gospel is the means for the Church to populate heaven. It's for MAKING SHEEP, not feeding them, the Church is a SHEEP MAKING institution, not a sheep feeding one. And all the while it's been God's arrangement from of old to provide 'seed to the sower and bread to the eater'.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    They err greatly in thinking that all one has to do to be 'saved' is to hear and really really really really truly savingly sincerely believe the gospel only once.

    'Salvation' is not a 'one-time event'. You must continue in it to remain 'saved'.
     
    #5 kyredneck, Jul 15, 2017
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    At the very moment a sinner receives Jesus as Lord, they are sealed by/with the Holy Spirit forever!
     
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  7. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    John 3:16 . For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Everlasting is everlasting.
     
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  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    What do you mean when you say "[You] must continue in it to remain 'saved'."
     
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Active Member
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    Exactly. You cannot be saved one minute and unsaved the next. You are either saved or you are not..
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, since I know you'll never provide scripture to back up your comments I"ll do it for you:

    13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
    14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God`s own possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph 1

    What all do you read into that? Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,. What does it mean?
     
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    What does Paul mean by "if you continue"? If "you hold fast"?

    ....to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1:22,23

    Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22

    Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2

    but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Note. I DID NOT say 'you must continue in it to remain a child of God'. Everyone that believes is ALREADY a child of God, i.e., born from above:

    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
     
    #12 kyredneck, Jul 15, 2017
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  13. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    OK. Now you have me confused. In your preceding post you seem to make an argument that a person can lose their salvation. In this last post it appears you are saying the opposite. I am not sure what you believe.

    I believe the Bible teaches the perseverance of the saints; that true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not only eternally secure in their position as a child of God, but that they also will continue to persevere in the faith, and never turn from following Christ. I believe what the Apostle John wrote in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." Those that turn away from the faith were never believers, they were impostors.
     
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  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Was Solomon an imposter?

    Is 1 John 2:19 saying it's impossible for a child of God to make shipwreck of the faith? The context is about false teachers, i.e., antichrists, you know. You are misapplying the passage, right along with hoi polloi.
     
    #14 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2017
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  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Be not deceived, God is not mocked, whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. If you sow to the flesh, from the flesh you will reap corruption.

    Yes, one can most definitely lose their temporal deliverance....

    ...but will never lose their eternal deliverance. There is no ETERNAL condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
     
    #15 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2017
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  16. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Solomon sinned. There is a difference between falling into sin and reprobation. Solomon gave into the demands of his wives and compromised his faith. I will not say that he apostatized. Still, there were grave consequences to the nation of Israel because of his toleration of idolatry.

    With all due respect, I am not misapplying 1 John 2:19. It matters not whether these were false teachers. When John wrote that they went out, he was indicating they abandoned the faith. Whether they abandoned the faith as teachers or pew sitters is irrelevant.

    There is a strange inconsistency for a person to believe in the Reformed view of predestination and Election, and also believe a person can lose their salvation. The former teaches that man is powerless to bring about his conversion, but after conversion becomes endued with the ability to lose that which God granted. John 6:39 states that Son will not lose anything (i.e. anyone) that the Father gives to Him. It does not mean that believers will not fall into sin, even grievous sin. Indeed, the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith states:

     
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  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    With all due respect, you are misapplying it. This misapplication is essential to support your stance of 'perseverance'. 'Backsliders' who don't persevere are simply categorized as 'never really truly sincerely savingly believed'. Reference Ezekiel 34 concerning sheep not getting fed and leaving the flock. Does your 'confession of faith' compel you to categorize them as 'never really truly sincerely savingly believed'? Imposters?

    I'm NOT Reformed. There are TWO aspects of our salvation; the eternal in which we are totally passive, and the temporal in which we are obliged to obey.
     
    #17 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2017
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  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    John 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

    21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


    You know what I believe Kyredneck, just thought I would add this!... Brother Glen:)
     
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  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yes, "feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my sheep". The REAL "Great Commission".

    Modern day 'evangelism' has minimized the gospel down to a formula whereby anyone can obtain immortality simply by following the instructions and repeating the incantation. It's sickening.
     
    #19 kyredneck, Jul 16, 2017
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  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Kyredneck said... Yes, one can most definitely lose their temporal deliverance....
    but will never lose their eternal deliverance. There is no ETERNAL condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    2 Samuel 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

    This was a man after God's own heart and I do not believe there is one person on here that will say that David ever lost his eternal Salvation, but David suffered the consequences of his actions... Same as those who are in Christ Jesus can lose the temporal joy of theirs... Brother Glen:)
     
    #20 tyndale1946, Jul 16, 2017
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