Predestined as What?

Predestination, as explained by the Calvinist, seems to always to be presented as a product of necessity. In other words. if in fact one is predestined, there is no possible escape of it being so. Nothing had any effect on that course or can alter their destiny, for all is foreordained to come to pass and that by necessity from eternity past to eternity future.

This raises an interesting point. If such a view is true, and one finds that he was predestined by necessity to salvation, how could he have ever been anything else than saved? Think about that for a minute. If one was ever lost, that would be contrary to his predestined salvation, for necessity demands no variation from a prescribed course. Necessity never changes. It is fixed and written in stone. There is not a shadow of turning from a predestined path.

I would like for one holding to predestination as ones necessitated end, to explain to me how one can ever be something other than the necessitated end that one was predestined for? How could one predestined to salvation ever be a sinner, for if he was a sinner at any time it would have had to be just as necessitated for him to be a sinner. If he was necessitated to be a sinner, such necessity could not be altered, for necessity is necessity, and can not be altered or changed, right?

 

Bill, you give me plenty of fodder for discussion but I fail to see how it applies directly to what I was trying to ask. I may not be understanding you completely and I am sure I always fail at presenting questions in the clearest light. I will try and address some of your comments either way when I return. I will be out of pocket for a day or so. Thanks for your input.

 

HP: We were just starting to have fun and learn about complete sentences, and you have to go and quit. Before you go, would you mind answering the question I posed at the start of this thread? I asked, "How could one predestined to salvation ever be a sinner." Give it a shot. (Before you challange my English, you had better ask Webdog in private first :thumbs: )

 

HP: Everyone’s beliefs are often so complex it is difficult to understand each other without many questions being asked. I am not sure if you mean you cannot decide whether or not you have received salvation, or if in fact you are just stating that a walk by faith is not the same as having absolute knowledge as God presently sees us all but we are not privy to. Possibly you mean something entirely different than either one of those ideas. Possibly you might be relating to the fact that the Calvinist seems ready to tell one they are saved by the words they just repeated. Can you explain further? Thanks.

 

HP: OK. We are not God. Just the same God tells us in His Word that we can know others by their fruit. Our salvation, as well as our understanding of the salvation of others, is by faith, but our fruits are a clear indication, as I read Scripture, that we or others indeed are children of the Lord. Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

In the case of our own salvation we are to examine ourselves. What are you going to examine if not the fruit as exhibited by the intents of ones heart as exemplified by your works/fruits? 1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Was not John telling us that an examination of our fruits is indeed a way to judge ourselves? 1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Was not the Apostle James telling us to examine ourselves by our fruits, denoted as ‘works,’ by the following admonition? Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I hope I am not reading you wrong here.

 

HP: Your wish is my command. If you desire to be left alone, a discussion group is the last place you should find yourself.

May you find the Lord rich to your soul.