Predestined to Damnation?

HP: It is God that hath made us and not we ourselves. God has endowed man with a will to chose and the ability to form intents, and that by His own Sovereign will. Man has dignity and worth, because He hath made us so. Even a man lying in a gutter has dignity and worth. Such a one is created in the image of God Himself. To recognize these truths takes nothing away from a Sovereign God, nor does it elevate man to a level that God has not foreordained him to possess.

 

HP: You see precious little about the intents and purposes of God by the examination of an act of God. Because Christ died for our sins, and that fact has been revealed to us, does not equate to believing that the product of that act, i.e., our salvation, was necessitated by that act.

Because nothing surprises God, that in no way equates to the necessity of our salvation or in the necessity of the damnation of the damned. Your logic is flawed in that you are reasoning that because God foreknows it must of necessity come to pass and that by God’s intention and design. That is simply a false notion, and if it were true would necessitate God being the designer, creator, and author of all sin, for He foreknew that as well.

The logical ends of your logic paints a most wicked blight on the character of God. I do not believe for a minute that you do so intentionally, but just the same, logic demands you accept the logical ends of your argument. If you see something warped and totally unjust by making God the author of sin, you must rethink your position on the foreknowledge of God necessitating the outcome.

 

HP: I agree Brother Bob.

 

Consider what one is suggesting he knows by mandating that 'if in fact' God foreknows something, it is of necessity that it comes to pass. One is mandating that God’s foreknowledge is LIMITED to things of necessity, i.e. if He foreknows it must of necessity come to pass, and that God could not foreknow things of perfect choice. Who knows the mind of God and who can limit his foreknowledge to that which mere man possesses? Who are we to limit God thus? Are we God's counselors?

 

Either one is predestined to be saved or he is not. If by predestined to salvation suggests that no other possibility exists other than to be saved due to God foreknowing it, is not the converse also true in that those God knows are not of the elect never had any other possibility than to be those predestined to damnation? Think hard and consider this well.

Is God Omniscient? Then He foreknows both those predestined to salvation and those predestined to damnation. It again is logical insanity to state I believe in the predestination of the elect, but refuse to accept the logical end of the predestination of the damned as well.

Would the Baptist that claims not to be a Calvinist, and states that he refuses to believe that God predestines the damned, and that God sends men to an eternal hell for doing nothing other than what God predestined them to be and that by necessity, please explain to me why they are not a Calvinist on this point? Show us logically how one can believe in the predestination of the elect without believing in the predestination of the damned.

I ask you again, is God Omniscient or not?

 

HP: You can accept it if you so choose, but when you do, you have unwittingly accepted the logical consequents of that position as well. If one cannot accept the logical consequents that God is the author of all evil, and that He predestined the damned to an eternal hell without there ever being the slightest hint of any other destination possible for them, and that the evil they do is nothing more or less than the predestined acts designed and forced into play by God Himself and that by necessity,…………Yes I would agree that not only is that hard to swallow but logical insanity, to say nothing about the blight it places upon a Holy and Just God.

The problem you exemplify with your post is that you are filtering the rendering of the texts in question through the filter of your presupposition that if in fact God foreknows it must of necessity come to pass. What you believe you are seeing as what the ‘Bible plainly states” is nothing more than the reflection of the presupposition you are filtering the text through, although subconsciously I am certain.

Let me ask you a question. Could the possibility even exist that God could foreknow matters of perfect choice, and that His Omniscience allows Him to foreknow matters not necessitated but rather are the product of the intents formed by a free will granted to every man? If not why not?

If necessity demands the outcome and that due to God’s foreknowledge it must of necessity come to pass, how can God justly blame or praise man for that which He necessitated?

How can you avoid God not being the creator of all evil, on the same basis you establish His predestination to salvation or anything else? Does He foreknow all evil that is to take place? Why is He then not the creator , by predestining and or foreknowing, all evil before it ever happens and that it will of necessity come to pass as a result of that knowledge?

 

HP:Whosoever will, and let him take of the waters of life freely indeed proclaim that the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. Eliminate the role of man’s will in salvation and the error one will of necessity fall into is legion.

In all our discussions there appears to be precious few of those men and women in leadership positions, with those ‘major credentials’ we hear spoken about, defending the defenseless positions of predestination and salvation apart from the will of man being involved. I would like to see some of those preaching such notions, or those teaching such notions in our Christian schools, to enter into these discussions to lend support to those on this list that have sat under the teaching of like doctrines, to come to the aide of those brave enough to attempt to defend such notions on this list. I am proud of those here that have been open and willing to discuss the doctrinal positions that they have sat under and had the backbone, even at the expense of personal vulnerability, to openly discuss their feelings. The time has come for their teachers of such notions to come to their aide.

Where are the promoters of the notion that the will of man is not in any way involved in the salvation process, and that God predestines those to be saved without any considerstion of the free formation of intents of the will being the means by which God foreknew their election?