1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Present your BEST argument for church tithing

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Soulman, May 27, 2005.

  1. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Posted by Aaron: No, giving is commanded, but your erroneous doctrine pretty much sums up the attitudes in threads where folks gripe about tithing. You're just trying to say that NOT giving is good and righteous and holy and on an even par with giving.

    Where is giving commanded? There are only two commandments in the N.T.

    If you have read this thread or any other threads on this issue you would see that I am totally FOR giving of financial resources, time and talent. Give as much as the Lord leads.

    I do gripe about tithing because it is nothing more than a way for churches to sound biblical while imposing O.T. law.

    Jesus taught giving from a cheerful heart. If you feel 10% or 50% of your income is what the Lord would have you to give, then by all means give it.

    Many churches today that teach tithing tell their folks that no matter how tight your finances are. No matter what bills have been paid you must tithe or you are inviting financial ruin upon yourselves. (UNBIBLICAL)

    I have watched people squirm in their pews agonizing wether to give $20.00 because that is what they could afford or give their $60.00 tithe and not feed their family properly. If they give the $20.00 they feel guilt instead of joy. If they give the $60.00 it is of constraint because they are worried for their family. The only one being robbed is the giver. He is robbed of any blessing because he was unable to give cheerfully no matter which way he went.

    They teach that if you tithe by faith even if the electric bill is outstanding that God will bless. (UNBIBLICAL)

    Congregations are told they are robbing God if they don't tithe. (UNBIBLICAL)

    This is hogwash! It is the church robbing the parishioner by enforcing tithing. The verses in Malachi that talk about robbing God are referring ti the Levite priests and to the temple. Not the church.

    Many preach storehouse tithing as a way to get all the tithe into the church. (UNBIBLICAL)

    The O.T. taught that all the tithe should be brought to the storehouse.

    Malachi 3:10
    Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    This was food! The storehouse was never transferred to the church as some say. It is NOT even a new testament concept.

    N.T. giving is of the heart. You give what you can. Large or small. Your giving includes time and talents. If you notice a brother in need it is acceptable to allocate some of the funds you were going to give the church for distribution any way you see fit.

    Don't get me wrong. We need to support our ministries. But we are not bound to storehouse tithing.

    I actually witnessed a pastor address his flock saying:"If you knew you were to die tomorrow, would you write past due tithe checks?

    Some churches see your ability to serve as directly related to your ability to give. It is no man's business how much you give. That is between you and God. That is not a cop out. It is biblical!

    What it comes down to is churches tell us to tithe and trust God to bless. In actuality it is them who should trust God and allow their people to give cheerfully and from the heart. Tithing today is not only unbiblical but was never done in the way in which it is being done today.

    The way for a church to prosper financially is to practise what they preach and learn to trust God.

    Posted by Aaron: If you are not giving, you are not a Christian.

    Hogwash Aaron! Giving is not a condition of salvation. Someone that doesn't give may not be a very good christian, but a christian none the less. :eek:

    Sorry HankD for the misunderstanding.. :D
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    24,556
    Likes Received:
    2,051
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We ultimately agree. I was just emphasizing the point that although a "tithe" is not a NT requirement it is not specifically forbidden given the other principles of faith, purpose of the heart, joyful attitude, etc.

    2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    HankD
     
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,157
    Likes Received:
    619
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matt. 5:42, Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

    The two commandments to which you refer are commandments to love. Tell me, how is love manifested?

    God so loved the world that He gave...
     
  4. Victory in Jesus

    Victory in Jesus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    I grew up in a church where the pastor told us it was not his business who tithed and who didn't. He always said, "Don't tell me what you give or IF you give...it's between you and the Lord". I tithed all my birthday/Christmas money and as soon as I got a job. It wasn't because I felt obligated, but because I wanted to give.

    The last church I was in (before this present one), the pastor told us "I don't care WHAT you think, I am going to keep track of who tithes and who doesn't. It's my business to know this".

    After a church 250 miles from us hit the $1 million mark for missions (my sister was a member of that church), our pastor yelled at us (not calmly advised, but yelled) "** Baptist Church just hit the $1 million mark for their missions goal and we are barely making ** !!"(can't remember what ours was, but not even close). He added, "It shouldn't matter that their church is in a metropolitan area and ours is in a small town! I know what some of you make and it's not right that we are not promising one million dollars!!"

    This had nothing to do with missions. It had to do with the embarrassment this pastor was feeling in front of his peers (yes, pastors face peer pressure, too).

    I tithed up until I found out he was monitoring our giving and then I quit. I know I was wrong, but suddenly I felt like I didn't want to give if it was now an obligation instead of an intimate act of love between my Lord and myself.

    [I just deleted a LOT of information about that church...I'll save it for a book contract [​IMG] ] But I will say the present pastor at that church is VERY human. I'll leave it at that.

    My pastor at my present church tells us that tithing is something between the Lord and us. I won't tell you now what I do about tithe because it is intimate, but I don't think I have to say anything, either. I simply love our new church and the people in it.

    My point is, tithing is an act of love. It should not be something screamed from the pulpit by pastors who want to compete with other churches or show off in front of other pastors.

    Please, somebody, tell me that not all pastors strut their feathers at pastor conventions. Because from what I've seen at these conventions, they brag about everything from new carpeting to how many busses are running (and even count the ones that aren't) all the way up to how many members join, babies are born and how much money is given.

    Yes, money is necessary for a church to run, but sometimes churches pad the pews and carpet the floors with plush velvet when the money could be going to missionaries who have little more than a grass hut to keep the rain out.

    Yes, we all need to priortize our checkbooks, but the churches also need to priortize...competing with other churches should not be a part of the budget.

    BTW, I don't think anyone from my previous church visits here. I'm not writing this to get even with anyone. I'm just trying to bring up a few points...but they are NOT points for why we should not tithe. Again, I believe this is a personal thing between the giver and the Lord. I believe the Lord convicts us to give.
     
  5. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Posted by Aaron: The two commandments to which you refer are commandments to love. Tell me, how is love manifested?

    You are right! Jesus did give His all. Give your all. Just call it giving! Why people fight to keep unbiblical principles just because that is what they have been taught, I'll never know. I used to be deceived by the tithe.

    Study the bible and you will see biblical giving takes nothing away from your perceived notion of tithing. N.T. giving is liberating. Give ALL you want anyway you want. But don't let some pastor or treasurer goad you into guilt for not giving what they think you should. Guilt was done away with on the cross. So was the tithe!!
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,157
    Likes Received:
    619
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You don't really mean "give your all," or you wouldn't be arguing to withold some of your money.

    Study the bible and you will see biblical giving takes nothing away from your perceived notion of tithing.

    Tell me, just what IS my view of tithing? I certainly didn't reveal it in this thread. My observation is that those who kick against the tithe are usually trying to justify being tight-fisted. And that's the case here.

    Whether I think the tithe is justified or not is irrelevant.

    Giving—liberal giving—is commanded. Paul's words cannot be taken to mean that one can justly purpose in his heart NOT to give liberally. God loveth a cheerful giver, not those who only give what costs them nothing.
     
  7. Victory in Jesus

    Victory in Jesus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think we should all go to the top of a mountain and leave all our belongings there. After you leave them, you can return to your homes. I'll watch them for you to make sure the Lord gets it all. :D

    Seriously, if you think of it in a spiritual sense, we are giving all our money to the Lord. For instance, what doesn't go into tithe and missions is used to feed our family *COUGH!*and pets*COUGH!* and to pay the electric and water bills, mortgage, etc.

    If we use the money the way the Lord intended, we are still giving it all to Him. We are using it for His purpose. However instead of feeding the missionary family or pastor's family, we are feeding our own kids.

    But if we use it to buy beer or raunchy videos, then we're not giving it all to Him.

    Perhaps we should pray for the Lords guidance before we make purchases like a computer (I know you have one!) or television set, etc. It's all His money. If it wasn't for my husband's good health, we wouldn't have money. The Lord gave him good health to perform his job.

    The same goes with our time and things we own.

    I dunno. It's still early and I'm just now getting coffee in me.
     
  8. OCC

    OCC Guest

    Simple. There is no tithe for the church. If there is, then we better be tithing EVERYTHING. Our livestock, etc. If we are bound by a tithe then we are bound to sacrificing animals. Oh...and we better not shave our beards.
     
  9. Victory in Jesus

    Victory in Jesus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    My point was that everything we own belongs to the Lord, anyway. I'm not saying we are obligated to give everything--or even a tenth--to the Lord. I'm just saying perhaps we should bear in mind that everything IS the Lord's and we'd be more conscious to use our possessions for the glory of God (what we watch on television, for instance).

    I'll try not to shave my beard. :D
     
  10. Victory in Jesus

    Victory in Jesus New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    272
    Likes Received:
    0
    Although, I personally believe in tithing, but that's a decision between myself and the Lord. What you do with your money and possessions are your personal business and it's no one else's place to hold you accountable for what you do with your possessions. They'll be useless when we're dead, anyway.
     
  11. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Posted by Aaron: You don't really mean "give your all," or you wouldn't be arguing to withold some of your money.

    I am saying it is your option in the age of grace. I didn't say anything about holding back! Get your facts straight before you spout off my friend. People like you that can't defend their position revert to insults. It's ok. I forgive you!

    Posted by Aaron: Tell me, just what IS my view of tithing? I certainly didn't reveal it in this thread. My observation is that those who kick against the tithe are usually trying to justify being tight-fisted. And that's the case here.

    I don't know or care what your view of tithing is. You are obviousley upset that you can't articulate or defend your position what ever it is. As far as your observation goes, that is the standard canned answer. You can do better than that can't you?

    Posted by Aaron: Giving—liberal giving—is commanded. Paul's words cannot be taken to mean that one can justly purpose in his heart NOT to give liberally. God loveth a cheerful giver, not those who only give what costs them nothing.

    You totally miss the point! I never said we shouldn't give liberally. Give ALL YOU WANT! That is what the bible advocates.

    Why don't you spend a little less time attacking me and spend a little more time in your bible. If you are angry, be angry at God. He is the one that did away with the tithe.

    Yes, there are those that will use this as an excuse not to give. Believe me, I am not one of them. They will answer to God. But it doesn't change the fact that tithing is not N.T. As far as I am concerned God owns it all anyway. We should never hold back. But we ARE NOT COMMANDED TO TITHE! [​IMG]
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,157
    Likes Received:
    619
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is an exchange in which your erroneous notions of giving are stated:

    TexasSky said we should give what we can spare. You said, "I totally agree with you TexasSky. That is the biblical way to give." Yet, when one examines the Scriptures, we find an attitude of giving commended by Christ wholly different than the one you commend. The widow gave out of her need. And truly, sacrificial giving is the only giving that receives the approbation of God.

    So, on one hand, you say one should only give what he can spare, and on the other you say one should give liberally.

    You say my case is weak, but you're the one flip-flopping.

    Your comments thus far:

    God only wants what you can afford, and giving is only suggested, not commanded.

    It still looks like your gripes about tithing are really a way to sanctify being a skinflint.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    24,556
    Likes Received:
    2,051
    Faith:
    Baptist
    NKJV 1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

    HankD
     
  14. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Posted by Aaron: TexasSky said we should give what we can spare.

    No. That is not what he said. He said: ...if you can afford 10%, give it. If you can afford 50%, give that. If you can only afford 1%, give it cheerfully...

    Quote a man accurately. Bottom line is give ALL you want and can.

    This thread is Do you believe tithing is for today or not. Defend your position and stop picking apart every sentance because you can't defend your position!
     
  15. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    You know what Aaron? You are a very judgemental person. But your judgement lacks proper direction. You attack my motives instead of the principle brought forth. What is your best argument for tithing? God knows what I give. You have no idea.

    I read your profile and am wondering if you have found a church home yet? Are you still in transition or in a church you give to regularly? If you do believe in tithing I hope you were saving it up to give to your new church. Or at the least tithing to the churches you were visiting. I would hate to see you accused of robbing God.

    Posted by Aaron: So, on one hand, you say one should only give what he can spare, and on the other you say one should give liberally.

    You take what I say out of context! But I will say that biblically it is none of your business what or how I give. That is not the question here.
     
  16. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    17,157
    Likes Received:
    619
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yep. Long ago. Just chose not to update my profile.

    Give what you can afford means exactly the same thing as give what you can spare.

    I did.

    No I didn't. The context is there for all to see.

    Now, to the discussion at hand:

    What percentage was given by the widow? (Remember, Christ commended her giving.) In comparison would you call giving only 10% liberal giving?

    I don't remember ever asking you how much you gave. I have merely been discussion the ideas you've put forth in this thread.
     
  17. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Posted by Aaron: I don't remember ever asking you how much you gave. It still looks like your gripes about tithing are really a way to sanctify being a skinflint.

    Aaron, The concept IS to give what you can afford. God wants you to pay your bills. If you don't provide for your own you are worse than an infidel. So yes. The give eveything you have and trust God to provide is irresponsible. You can give sacrificially and still support your family. The thread is simply state your best argument for tithing.
     
  18. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2004
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    By the way Aaron, you still haven't stated your best argument for tithing.
     
  19. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    953
    Likes Received:
    14
    Whether we eat, drink, or whatever we do, do all for the glory of God. Everything is God's. However, as far as money goes, IMO giving anything less than 10 percent to the Lord is unbiblical. Paul was thanking churches for sacrificing in their giving, and in Acts people are selling their houses and giving all the money to the Church. I'm sorry, but if someone thinks he can just give 10 percent and think by doing so he is fulfilling his obligation, well that is not biblical either. But people are escaping the biblical pattern. Why would God ask for 10 percent at any time in history if that number has no significance at all to him? And if tithing wasn't a biblical pattern, what in the world is the author of Hebrews using it for as his argument to NT believers? "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth" (Heb 7:8). The Levites received tithes, but God is the one who really received them in heaven, because he is the one who initiated the whole system in the first place.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  20. KJVO

    KJVO New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a very interesting thread.
    I do not believe that tithing is commanded for the Church, I pretty well agree with Soulman on this issue.
    I do have one point to make.
    If you have decided to give a set amount that week and you notice a brother in need in your church, slip the money to him instead of it going into the plate, is this wrong?
    In the OT God would meet them in the temple.And the tithes of the people went to supporting the Levites and the temple.
    Now we are the temple, God is in us. We are the "church" the building is where we meet that is all.
    Would it displease God to give to a brother truly in need.
     
Loading...