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Present your BEST argument for church tithing

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Soulman, May 27, 2005.

  1. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Context Bryan....check the context.In Matt.23:23 Jesus was (1)still alive prior to the Cross so the "law" was still in effect.And (2)was speaking to "law-keeping" Jewish scribes and pharisees....NOT born again New Testament Christians under GRACE.Different dispensation,different application of the truth.Remember....context,context,context.Most if not ALL false doctrine is the result of scripture being painfully jerked OUT of CONTEXT.Not a wise thing to do when determining balanced New Testament Bible Doctrine.Think about it.

    Greg Sr.
     
  2. bgoc bryan

    bgoc bryan New Member

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    Jesus is our example. I would not call refrence to Jesus's direct word "jerked out of context". Living in freedom through his grace we do not walk in fear of the law we have been freed from sin's hold. We do not sin greater to increase garce.
     
  3. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Bryan....I don't advocate the "tithe" because I believe in GIVING as Paul taught it.Not once did he teach about tithing even though he had ample opportunity.On that subject he was DEAD SILENT because he was addressing Gentile believers for the most part.Jesus is INDEED our example but the "direct" words of Jesus that you gave reference to WERE being spoken to a strictly JEWISH audience while they were still (dispensationally)under the "law".I'm told that Jews today DON'T practice tithing because they don't have a Levitical Priesthood in existence to tithe to or support(which was God's purpose for the "tithe").IF you are using Matt.23:23 as your proof-text for New Testament "tithing" you ARE pulling that out of context.Any observant reading of that passage OUGHT to tell you that.Now......if you want to be a liberal,sacrificial GIVER as the New Testament GIVERS were...I certainly have no objection or problem with that....neither would the Lord.Remember...God owns it ALL....and we are called to be wise STEWARDS of all He gives us...whether it's money,possessions,time,talents...or whatever.By all means GIVE...as much and as often as you can.Just don't neglect the true needs of your family in order to satisfy an unbiblical requirement to "tithe".That would make you "worse than an infidel"(1 Timothy 5:8)and that is not what the Lord wants of us.

    Greg Sr.
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Greg Sr.,

    Well saying. ;)
     
  5. JamesBell

    JamesBell New Member

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    OK, maybe someone can clear this up for me. How do you decide which OT laws are done away with under the new dispensation and which ones are still in effect? I mean, nobody ever says "Oh, you can kill all you want, this is a new dispensation." Yet, there is no problem in saying that on some issues... oddly enough it is usually the centered on things people don't like to do.

    Don't get me wrong, I know that things are different, and I agree we are called to give, not commanded to tithe. However, I do sometimes wonder even why I think that. There has to be some logic somewhere.
     
  6. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    My systemic method of determining that: Simply go by the NT. The laws which are repeated-- as well as new ones therein, and old which are expounded (like adding love of money as a form of idolatry)-- are our essential requirements.

    Many people seem to think an OT law must be specifically named and rendered obsolete in order to cease to be a requirement for NT Chritians [tithing, for one example]. But there are a lot of noticeable holes in this system.... mixing different types of fabrics, letting a slave go free after 6 years or else boring his ear and holding him indefintely, a man marrying his brother's widow and calling her children the first brother's children-- these are not named and rendered nonessentials under NT law. So going by the NT alone frees us from even thinking these are required of us.
     
  7. JamesBell

    JamesBell New Member

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    That is a pretty good answer. But how did you come to this conclusion? Is it just something you devised or is there a Biblical principle that backs up that line of thinking?
     
  8. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    i once read somewhere that there were 1648 imparitive statements (commands) in the NT (i never counted); and none says to give God any of of your money. there are a lot of monetary principles taught in the NT, and there purpose (in general) i think is to be a warning to the Believer to watch where their mind is based, and a great indicator of that is christian giving, where your treasure is there your heart will be also.
    However, i know alot of people who use this as an excuse not to Give at all....charity starts at home i have heard said. (sadly by my dad) i also know alot of poeple who give 10%, and they think their job is done, no witnessing, nothing more than church on sunday, no volenteering, no nursury duty (even though they have infants). and yet still others who only give 10% and should be giving alot more (they're millionairs with all the lavish excentricities).

    i give as the Lord prospers me. and i ask for when i have need. thank God that our church helps those in need, they helped me after a truck ran a stopsign going 60mph and hit my car (while we were on our way home from church) one sunday. i haven't worked since then, and my church has helped a bunch. so when you give to your church remember that people like me may one day ask you to help feed and keep a roof over the heads of his whole family (all 5 of us).

    Deu 24:19 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

    thankyou and God Bless
     
  9. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, THAT THERE BE NO GATHERINGS WHEN I COME.

    it appears to me the reason the first part of the verse (the part always quoted)is in the second part, to save Paul time.


    thankyou and God Bless
     
  10. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    I conclude this by referring to the NT passages in which this topic is addressed. The first one is in Acts 15, in which there was a 'debate' in Jerusalem where some Jewish Christians took the position, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses" (v.5). But Peter opposed this position, saying, "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are" (vv.10,11). What the 'council' finally concluded was "but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. But as for certain specific ceremonial and sacrificial topics like circumcision, the question is unequivocably asnwered "No; these are not necessary."

    While Paul expounds further on this in his epistles, I think the conclusion is that some things are required and therefore repeated to NT Christians; otherwise they are not required. Any conclusion from scripture is itself not scripture. But I think otherwise than the "Not repeated; not required" system gives simply individuals and churches huge subjective leeway that is divisive, with some saying sabbath observance is required, some saying we must not eat pork or shellfish, some saying we must observe all OT festivals, et al, et al. There is plenty to divide Christians just by our different understandings of New Testament scripture, so why bring in the Old T that is 3 times as long?
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Yeshua4me2,

    Common for many IFB churches use 1 Cor. 6:2 as 'proof' of tithing. They did not follow the context - heremenuetic rule.

    The context of 1 Cor. 6:1-4 say nothing about tithing, because Paul does not mentioned, 'tithing' in this passage. This passage is talking about no one collect things till Paul comes to collect things on the first day of the week. ***(I do not consider the first day of the week was actual on Sunday, because the calendar was used Jewish calendar, not Roman Casear, so, no way that we can be sure which day is on the first day of the week).

    The conext of 1 Cor. 6:1-4 talking about, Paul comes to collect them, and he brings them to Jerusalem, to give things what people need -clothing, food, mails, money, things, etc...

    That passage have do nothing with church service or tithing. That is talking about collection, and giving to people, what they need.
     
  12. askM

    askM New Member

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    Simple concept here:
    God is God. He can do much more with 90% than we can with 100.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Tithing is not easy for "Today" churches because I experienced some different Baptist churches for 30 years.

    With right attitude, a person gives $ for tithing in his church. Some church members request the financial report, but a pastor refuses to give it to them. Why is it a worst one?

    With right attitude, a person gives $ for tithing in his church. Some church members request the financial report, their pastor gives it to them. Why it is a best one?

    An illustration will surprise you 2 sides of different results as above. Please read carefully when I give you 2 illustrations below.

    A millionaire gave tithe with his right attitude to his church without his knowledge of finanical report. What happened? His pastor gets wealth from him through tithing.

    A millionaire gave tithe with his right attitude to his church with his knowledge of finanical report. What happened? His pastor can't get wealth because the church paid him as a salary.

    Which is more honest?

    Any thoughts? Discussions?
     
  14. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    It is a blessing to see people on this board talking biblically about giving instead of manipulating the bible to make tithing the rule of the day.

    This is a tough subject and very divisive. However, christians need to understand N.T. giving because there are ALOT of churches out there that have got it wrong. They have been duped by man made doctrines that place the bretheren in bondage. Christians must hold the truth above all else including church teaching. It is our only rudder in a sea of apostasy. The bible says that if we seek truth we will find it. We shall know it. I believe it!
     
  15. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Askjo,

    You make a good point of two questions. No way that we could avoid the issue of giving offering at the church. Because many members want to know where the money going, when after we giving money.

    I hear many cases of churches have trouble with finanicals and debts. Many Churches are bankrupts and closed doors. Also, many pastors and secertaries stolen lot of money from the churches. Many pastors and secertaries are in jail for that.

    Members have good reason for their request that church must give finicial report to them. And my opinion about the finicial meeting at the church should be on Wednesday night instead of Sunday morning or evening. Members want to know where the money going, two or more deacons must be witness to know where the money going, and to trust each others.

    As treasurer, a person cannot deposit money in church's bank by alone, must have two ore more persons as witness for deposit money in the bank.

    Many churches have troubles with finanicals.

    Notice during Jesus' ministry in Jerusalem. He went into the building of temple, he saw people selling animals in the temple. He was so upset and angry. He tossed tables out, and opened all animal cages. He called that house - "House of Thieve".

    Today, many churches are still doing it. For example- Catholic churches are doing BINGO, carnivals, etc. to running their business, earning lot of money from people. That is wrong.

    Many IFB pastors ought to be careful what they would teaching or preaching on tithing to the congregation. No way that pastors could avoid the issue of tithing. Many people think pastor is a robber, or stealing money from people.

    My friends told me, they were going to file sue against their pastor for not owe money back to them. They told me, the lawyer told them, that they were not alone, many cases, many pastors stolened or borrow money from people. Many people are complaint file sue against pastors.

    I adviced friends, not to doing to sue against their pastor. I told them, let God take care of pastor. They agreed with me.

    Money is a big issue everywhere that we are no way to forsake or avoid it.

    Interesting, when Christ was on earth. I consider, that himself was the world's greatest missionary. He never asking people for need money or offering to giving money to him. He have no job, no business. Even, he have no home. We know that Christ is God. But, I believe he teaching us about faith. We must have faith in God, no matter what happen to us in situations.

    Same with Apostle Paul. He never asking people for money. He just taught God's Word. Also, he owns business - tentmaker, he sells tents to people for his profits. But his business is separated from church. Same idea as we have job or business, our earning always separate from church.

    Paul only taught people about cheerful giving with their hearts. He never used word, 'tithing' find anywhere in the 13 epistles.

    Bible tells us, more blessing to giving than receiving. We should giving more from our heart than receiving because of our attitude, and willing to helping people, what they need.

    Good Samaratian is a good example, that he giving his time, willing to help a person in an emergency time. Many people like rich, famous, pastors, etc. ignore person begging for help.

    Several years ago, I heard a true sad story in Chicago. During hot summer day. A young black man crawling toward the emergency door of the hosptial. He was bleeding by being shot in his chest. Many workers like doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, etc. ignored him. Finally, a policeman found him lie about 20 feet away from the emergency door. He immediated took him to enter into the hosptial. And young black man died.

    Hospital said, they cannot take an injuried person nearby the emergency door, because of its rule or public. Shortly later, the mayor of Chicago rebuked against that hosptial for wrong doing.

    Bible oftens teaching us, that we must be deny ourselves, thinking of others, willing to helping them all the times, what they need. Same as we should be cheerful giving MUCH as we want to giving to help church, pastor, missionaries, etc. from our heart through faith. God would bless us if we want to giving MUCH as we desire from our heart.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Percentage giving is predominantly an OT concept, but it is also found in the NT (1 Cor. 16:2). But what happens when an OT concept (e.g. adultery, giving, etc.) is repeated in the NT, is it stronger or weaker? Remembering that Jesus said even looking lustfully at a woman is adultery, the many places where giving is mentioned in the NT should also follow this mode of strengthing this principle.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  17. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    Posted by Bluefalcon: Percentage giving is predominantly an OT concept, but it is also found in the NT (1 Cor. 16:2).

    1 Cor. 16:2 : Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

    Paul it seems didn't wish to wait around to have services in order to gather the money he needed. There is NO mention of percentages as in the O.T.

    The mode of strengthening you refer to may have some merit somewhere but not for tithing. Giving is better than tithing. People were forced by law and therefore many probably gave grudgingly.I guess we are strengthened by a new and better way. Giving is of the heart. Those that think people are trying to get away with something need to have faith that God will judge all actions of the heart. We also need to remember that God is in control and knew what He was doing when He did away with the tithe.
     
  18. yeshua4me2

    yeshua4me2 New Member

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    and let's not forget that there are churches (germeny,france,england,ect...) that collect tiths thru their federal gov't. i think that for most people a "tithe" is about the right amount. but there are other people where a "tithe" is too small or to large an amount. i agree there is no verse that gives the church the authority to take taxex from it's members. lots that say to give but none to take (which is what churches do who preach tithing as a law).

    but far to many people don't give at all, offerings (not "tithes") are a good barometer of the spiritual health of a church (or the individual for that matter). for where your heart/mind is there your treasure will be also.

    thankyou and God Bless
     
  19. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    Well said yeshua4me2.
     
  20. JamesBell

    JamesBell New Member

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    Alcott, great answer. Thank you.
     
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