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Featured Private interpretation of prophecy relating to Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Covenanter, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I'm opening a new thread to avoid hijacking John of Japan's thread on 2 Peter 1.
     
    #1 Covenanter, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  2. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    IMO OC prophecy must be interpreted according to the guidance of Jesus & his Apostles. This is a useful starting point -
    Luke 24:
    18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, ‘Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?’
    19 ‘What things?’ he asked.
    ‘About Jesus of Nazareth,’ they replied. ‘He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.’

    25 He said to them, ‘How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?’ 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

    OC prophecy looks forward to Jesus, his incarnation, life, & saving work, death & resurrection, & ascension, and the Gospel proclaimed to all nations.

    There are, of course, local interpretations immediately relevant to the people the prophets are addressing, but in many cases there is a fuller meaning & fulfilment relating to the LORD Jesus Christ & the Gospel age.

    Ultimately the full & perfect realisation of prophecy will be at Jesus' final return for resurrection of saved & lost, judgment, & the NH&NE where only righteousness exists.

    The first prophecy relating to Abraham's seed is -
    Gen. 12:2 ‘I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you;
    I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
    3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
    and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.’

    restated after the sacrifice of his seed, Isaac -
    Gen. 22:17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.’

    Those prophecies were fulfilled by the nation of Israel comprising Abraham's descendants as confirmed by Joshua & Solomon. However, they were never fulfilled permanently.

    In Luke 1, the songs of Mary & Zechariah declare that in Jesus the promises to Abraham were being fulfilled. Simeon sang -
    Luke 2:29 ‘Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
    you may now dismiss your servant in peace.
    30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
    31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
    32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
    and the glory of your people Israel.’

    The Apostles have the same understanding -
    Acts 3:24 ‘Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, “Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.” 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.’

    When we read the prophets we should look at the context for the fulfilment relevant to the prophet & the people to whom he is prophesying, but look to Jesus, the Gospel & the NH&NE for the ultimate fulfilment.
     
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  3. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I'll now answer this -
    Zec. 13:1 ‘On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

    Zechariah is one of the 3 post-exile prophets whose prophecies specifically look forward to Jesus & are directly quoted particularly in the last week & crucifixion narrative in the Gospels. Let's put 13:1 in context -
    12:10 ‘And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo......
    13:1 ‘On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

    They did indeed look on the pierced Lord Jesus on the cross, as his cleansing sacrificial blood flowed out. At Pentecost, as Peter preached forgiveness through the crucified & the risen Christ -
    Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, ‘Brothers, what shall we do?’

    Peter declared the cleansing fountain was open -
    38 Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off – for all whom the Lord our God will call.’
    40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, ‘Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.’ 41 Those who accepted his message were baptised, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

    You mention Eze. 37-8. Lets go back a chapter -
    Eze. 36:24 ‘“For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

    That again has its fulfilment at Pentecost.

    Ezekiel's prophecy is given in terms of the people of Israel & the promised land, but should not be limited - we have a glorious NH&NE to look forward to. At the time of the prophecy, they were in exile in Babylon, & they did return to the land, they did rebuild the temple but sadly they continued to disregard the Law of God as Malachi complains. The fulfilment had to wait for Messiah.
     
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  4. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    But - what has sprinkling to do with baptism?
    Hebrews has the answer -
    6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms (Gk βαπτισμῶν), and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    9: 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings (Gk. βαπτισμοῖς ) – external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

    I suggest that the OC various washings/baptisms were sprinklings, as dipping in sacrificial blood would be impractical. The red heifer cleansing ritual for cleansing after contact with the dead - Heb. 9:11-14, Numbers 19, Psalm 51:7 - is contrasted with the cleansing blood of Christ signified by baptism. The blood of the covenant was sprinkled - Exo. 24 - as Hebrews explains in 9:18-22.

    The OC washings/baptisms prefigured the perfect cleansing/washing of NC baptism. As John writes -
    Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,...
     
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  5. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    And when was vs 28 of Ezekiel 36 fulfilled?
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It also will ahve the future and full apllication of the day of the Second Coming event, as all israel shall be saved by God on that date, as nation will be reborn, and finally the jews will say":Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"
     
  7. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Covenanter, you are a smart man, so how can Pentecost be the fulfillment of taking the Jews from all over the earth and bringing them back to Israel when they were not dispersed until the Romans began the process in 70 AD?
     
  8. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The Israelites were dispersed by the Ninevites & later by the Babylonians. At the end of the captivity they were free to return but obviously many did not, & synagogues were established all round the Roman empire & Babylonia. Acts 2 gives a list of many of the countries - every nation under heaven.
     
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Sure there were a lot of out-of-towners. Sure the Jews were overrun and taken captive many times and often did not return, but how can you argue that they were in every country of the world before 70 AD as they are now? You can't. That is where your point really fails. The Romans were early Hitlers and their taking the Jews to Rome as slaves led to their scattering to almost every country in recent times.
     
  10. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    You are arguing with the inspired record in Acts 2.
     
  11. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    That's private interpretation without Scripture reference.
     
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  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Fountain shall be openned up in Jerusalem on that day, all eyes shall see Him and be perced thru, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord, Nationa shall be reborn in a single day, ring any bells?
     
  13. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    No. I am saying that it means literally what it says and that you have tried to make it more than what it says. At Pentecost the Jews had not been almost totally pushed out of Israel for over 1900 years.
     
  14. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    What year do historians think was the year when Jews appeared in England?
     
  15. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Obviously Pentecost - read Acts 2.

    At Pentecost thousands of Jews believed the Gospel, were baptised in the name of Jesus, and formed the church. In the following days and years, many thousands more, including priests & Pharisees believed & were added to the church. The converted Jews took the Gospel back to their countries, & persecuted Judaean Jews were scattered & took the Gospel with them.

    Soon Gentiles were added to the church without being circumcised. Paul makes it clear that believing Jew & Gentile form one redeemed people of God. The OC distinction between Jew & Gentile is totally ended by the Gospel.

    The Apostles took the Gospel around the world - we have the record in Acts of Paul taking the Gospel around the Roman Empire.

    The Apostles confirm that the original covenant promise to Abraham was being confirmed by the Gospel.

    Hebrews 11 & 12 teach that Abraham's expectation of a promised land went far beyond the territory granted to the nation. The NH&NE is the scope of the promised land of the eternal promises.
     
  16. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Ezekiel was prophesying to the exiles in Babylon, so the immediate, partial fulfilment was the return after 70 years. Daniel explains that 70x7 years would see the fulfilment through the Messiah, all the blessings of 9:24 being secured at Calvary where Jesus FINISHED his God-given commission.

    The cleansing, new hearts, & Holy Spirit were declared at Pentecost, & the following years (the "millennium") would see the spread of the Gospel as the promises to the Patriarchs were fulfilled through the Seed, Jesus, by the Gospel.

    The perfect, eternal state will be seen in the NH&NE.
     
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Pentecost was not 1948.
     
  18. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    The implication that the events of 1948 is your private interpretation. The godless terrorists who run the country that calls itself Israel, & that terrorise the Palestinians are certainly NOT God's Israel.

    Jer. 31:33 ‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,’ declares the Lord.
    I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.

    I will be their God, and they will be my people.
    34 No longer will they teach their neighbour,
    or say to one another, “Know the Lord,”
    because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,’
    declares the Lord.
    ‘For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.’

    That New Covenant was inaugurated at the last supper, & ratified at Calvary. It was implemented at Pentecost -
    Acts 2:38 Peter replied, ‘Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off – for all whom the Lord our God will call.’
    .......
    46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

    Paul assures the Jew/Gentile Corinthian church that it applies to them -
    2 Cor. 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
    I will live with them and walk among them,
    and I will be their God, and they will be my people.’

    The perfect fulfilment is in the NH&NE, not some future millennium -
    Rev. 21:1 Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
    Now, what Scriptures can you quote to support your private interpretation that 1948 was significant?
     
  19. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Oh, I want to look at Ezekiel and other Scriptures but I have to run errands now. By the way, the USA pulled $200 million from Hamas in the Gaza the other day. I think that the UK should forget their past history in Israel and disengage from the issue in spite of what the Islamic population of the UK wants.

     
  20. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I think you mean that the USA pulled $200 million from the people of Gaza, preventing the rebuilding of homes, schools, hospitals, power stations, water supply, sewage works, etc, all destroyed by Israeli bombing of a defenceless population.

    But to return to the thread -
    There is of course a lot of support in the OC Scriptures for the return of Israel to the promised land, including rebuilding the temple & resuming sacrificial worship, & reallocating the land among the 12 tribes.

    The problem is that there is NO support for the return of Israel to the promised land in the NC Scriptures. Romans 11 speaks of salvation for Jews who do not continue in unbelief. Salvation of Jews down the millennia since Pentecost is not in doubt.

    Instead there is a very clear emphasis of the fulfilment of the promises to Abraham through his Seed, the LORD Jesus Christ, with all repentant sinners counted as Abraham's seed, & heirs according to the promise. As Paul writes -
    Gal. 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    That means that the literal interpretation of OC prophecy to teach the return of Israel to the land is contrary to the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, & is therefore private interpretation.

    Note the context of 2 Peter 1:20
    16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eye-witnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honour and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’ 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
    19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Peter is focusing on the Lord Jesus Christ as the fulfilment of prophecy. It's his second letter. In the first he writes -
    1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

    Valid interpretation of prophecy focuses on the Lord Jesus Christ & the Gospel, & all the redeemed, regardless of ethnicity, NOT on the nation of Israel.

    The glorious & perfect fulfilment of ALL prophecy will be after Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment & establishes the NH&NE.
     
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