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Propitiation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, may I assume you don't have an answer to my question?
     
    #21 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    What does the Scriptures state?

    1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    Clearly, the blood sacrifice was for all humanity.
     
    #22 agedman, Nov 11, 2017
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Does "the whole world" (κοσμος) refer to every person without distinction?

    Or could 1 John 2:2 be telling us that Jesus is the only Savior of the world; that is, He is the only way anyone can be saved no matter who he is (John 14:6), and that Jesus died to save a people out of every nation (IE the whole world); in that sense, He is the propitiation for the whole world. But is it possible this does not mean that He died a propitiatory sacrifice for every individual who has ever lived?
     
    #23 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes, you may assume I haven't an answer. I am not sure I even understand the question.

    I look forward to you expounding on the question.
     
    #24 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Why take John other than with complete veracity?

    There is no Scripture from other writers offered in dispute or better to modify that John did not mean other then all humankind without distinction.
     
    #25 agedman, Nov 11, 2017
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I do. And the suggestion that I don't is a cheap shot.
     
    #26 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Let me try again. You say the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ does not always result in salvation. So I am asking, in those cases, what more must be added to Christ's propitiatory sacrifice to insure the salvation of the sinner?
     
    #27 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I am saying that Christ himself IS the Lamb of God. He IS the propitiation for human sin, period. I was speaking of 1John 2:2.
     
    #28 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    No “cheap shot” intended, but mere rhetorical with a broader spectrum of calling any reader to attend to the veracity of Scriptures.

    My apologies that it came across as contentious. It was never meant to cause hurt.
     
    #29 agedman, Nov 11, 2017
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. We know that.

    All people everywhere without distinction?
     
    #30 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away human sin. 1 John 2:2 is speaking of Jesus, not all people everywhere.

    The ones who experience atonement for their sins are the ones who believe.

    I don't understand the difficulty here. Are we somehow talking past each other?
     
    #31 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Here is were we would disagree.

    Again to place atonement as conditional upon those who believe does not 1 John support.
     
    #32 agedman, Nov 11, 2017
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Except that is not what it says, is it? It says "who takes away the sin of the world."

    Don't be nonsensical. The question was not "Who is Jesus." The question is "who is the world?"

    So we are now talking about the atonement rather than propitiation?

    It would appear one of us is.
     
    #33 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The difference, IMHO, is the angle we look at the atonement. Did Jesus only suffer for those who would be saved? No, He suffered for humanity - for the sins of the whole world. Who experiences this atonement in a personal way (who is reconciled to God through Christ)? Those who believe.

    “It is finished” was not speaking of God’s supposed work of punishing Jesus for each sin people committed. It is speaking of Christ’s work – His obedience even unto death – purchasing humanity from sin and death and freeing from those bonds those who are “in Him”. “It is finished” refers to His work from cradle to grave. It is done and Christ is the Last Adam through Whom we may be reconciled to God. But Christ’s death itself and alone does not effect this reconciliation. In Christ God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting trespasses against people. This ministry of reconciliation continues.
     
    #34 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    1 John 2:1-2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    Please point out where the subject becomes the world rather than Christ.
     
    #35 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    That would be the best place to look.
     
    #36 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are saying that the subject of 1 John 2:2 is "the whole world"?

    Taking that for granted, although I do not believe it correct, John refers us to this "world" a few other times in this epistle. Does it carry the same meaning?
     
    #37 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    <sigh> No, you brought that diversion up, not me.

    Yes, we know.

    Does κοσμος always mean exactly the same thing? Of course not! The word can mean several things:

    A. World/order of creation
    1. Universe
    Matt. 13:35 - "the foundation of the world" (cf. Matt. 25:34; Lk. 11:50; Jn. 17:24; Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3; 9:26; I Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8; 17:8)
    Acts 17:24 - "the God who made the world and all things in it"
    Rom. 1:20 - "since the creation of the world..."
    2. Earth, geographical location or place
    Matt. 24:21 - "since the beginning of the world"
    Jn. 1:10 - "the world was made through Him"
    3. Material objects
    Matt. 16:26 - "if he shall gain the whole world" (cf. Mk. 8:36; Lk 9:25)
    B. World/order of humanity
    1. Mankind in general
    Jn. 3:16 - "God so loved the world that He gave His Son..."
    Jn. 4:42 - "the Savior of the world"
    I Tim. 1:15 - "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"
    2. General public
    Jn. 7:4 - "show Yourself to the world"
    Jn. 12:19 - "look, the world has gone after Him"
    Jn. 18:20 - "I have spoken openly to the world"
    C. World/order of evil
    1. Unregenerate mankind; mankind as affected by the Fall
    Jn. 1:29 - "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
    Jn. 16:8 - "He (H.S.) will convict the world concerning sin"
    Jn. 17:9 - "I do not ask on behalf of the world"
    II Cor. 5:19 - "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"
    2. World-system opposed to God; activity of mankind affected by Fall
    I Cor. 1:20,21 - "the wisdom of the world"
    Gal. 6:14 - "the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world"
    Col. 2:8 - "elementary principles of the world"
    James 4:4 - "friendship with the world is hostility toward God"
    I Jn. 2:15 - "do not love the world..."
    3. Dominion of the devil; Satan's activity in mankind affected by Fall
    Jn. 12:31 - "prince of this world cast out" (cf. Jn. 14:30; 16:11)
    I Cor. 2:12 - "the spirit of the world"
    I Jn. 4:4 - "he that is in the world"

    The question is, which of those meanings best fits 1 John 2:2?

    I contend, as I posted earlier, that 1 John 2:2 is telling us that Jesus is the only Savior of the world; that is, He is the only way anyone can be saved no matter who he is (John 14:6), and that Jesus died to save a people out of every nation (IE the whole world); in that sense, He is the propitiation for the whole world. So my contention is that it means that He died a propitiatory sacrifice, not for every individual who has ever lived, but for those from every nation of the world.

    2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our (the Jews) sins, and not for ours (the Jews) only, but also for the whole (non-Jewish) world (some from every tribe, language, people, and nation).

    Revelation 5:9 “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation." There is your "whole world." :)
     
    #38 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
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  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So what was the issue when I said, on the other thread, that the verse was essentially saying Jesus was the only way? It seems we are saying very close, if not exactly, the same thing.
     
    #39 JonC, Nov 11, 2017
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The issue is not "Jesus is the only way." The issue is "Jesus is the only way for whom?" I contend κοσμος does not mean "all people everywhere without distinction." I contend it means "people out of every tribe, language, people, and nation."
     
    #40 TCassidy, Nov 11, 2017
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