Propitiation

[Ben1445]

I don't see how Christ is the propitiation only for those who believe, and I don't understand how propitiation becomes provision.

Propitiation and imputation are not mutually exclusive and they are exactly how God can be satisfied with the atonement provided for all and still judge some to be in their sin and some to be forgiven.

 

[JonC]

Jesus is not a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but one has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Since we have flesh and blood, he too shared in our humanity (he came in the likeness of sinful flesh; was made sin for us; shared in our infirmity; was the Son of Man) so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free man who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

This is the Cross. God reconciling mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, not counting sin against man.

But freeing from the bondage of sin and death (the power of Satan) is only one part, for is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

God set forth His Son as a Propitiation through His blood (His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness, in Him there is no condemnation and we escape the wrath to come) to be received by faith. The "last Adam" became a life giving Spirit. He is the Life. The guilty man will perish, and we need to die to sin (the guilty man in us must die and be born of the Spirit (although we die yet shall we live). We must put to death the flesh, die with Christ so that we will live in Him.


A lack of faith in man, man not receiving this propitiation by faith, does not nullify the fact the Propitiation has been set forth to be received by faith.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You have suggested that 1Jn 2:2 does not support the view that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world

This is quite wrong. If you would take the trouble to read my posts before replying to them, you would discover that what I am suggesting is that Christ is not the propitiation for all the people in the world. Do you understand the difference?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Propitiation and imputation are not mutually exclusive and they are exactly how God can be satisfied with the atonement provided for all and still judge some to be in their sin and some to be forgiven.

Your quotation of me excluded some important points, so here is my post again. You will note that I did not mention 'imputation.' I don't see therefore that you have answered the points that I made.

My post was as follows:

I don't follow your logic.
Is God the Father propitiated in respect of 'the whole world' by the shed blood of Christ? If so, and you take the view that 'world' means all the people in the world, I don't see how Christ is the propitiation only for those who believe, and I don't understand how propitiation becomes provision. If some are not saved, then God has not been propitiated and is still angry with them It is perhaps worth mentioning that the words 'believe' or 'belief' do not appear in 1 John 2:2, any more than the words 'The sins of' do. You have to write them in.

The fact is that the Lord Jesus was given a vast number of people to redeem by the Father, and He was commanded not to lose even one (John 6:39 etc.). This He has done, and the Father is propitiated in respect of all those people, which is why we see them at the Last Day standing before the throne of God, clothed in white and crying out, "salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."

 

[Silverhair]

This is quite wrong. If you would take the trouble to read my posts before replying to them, you would discover that what I am suggesting is that Christ is not the propitiation for all the people in the world. Do you understand the difference?

I did read your post but it seems you did not read mine.

What I said
"You have suggested that 1Jn 2:2 does not support the view that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world"

Your reply
"I am suggesting is that Christ is not the propitiation for all the people in the world"

What is the difference Martin?

 

[Ben1445]

Your quotation of me excluded some important points, so here is my post again. You will note that I did not mention 'imputation.' I don't see therefore that you have answered the points that I made.

My post was as follows:

I don't follow your logic.
Is God the Father propitiated in respect of 'the whole world' by the shed blood of Christ? If so, and you take the view that 'world' means all the people in the world, I don't see how Christ is the propitiation only for those who believe, and I don't understand how propitiation becomes provision. If some are not saved, then God has not been propitiated and is still angry with them It is perhaps worth mentioning that the words 'believe' or 'belief' do not appear in 1 John 2:2, any more than the words 'The sins of' do. You have to write them in.

The fact is that the Lord Jesus was given a vast number of people to redeem by the Father, and He was commanded not to lose even one (John 6:39 etc.). This He has done, and the Father is propitiated in respect of all those people, which is why we see them at the Last Day standing before the throne of God, clothed in white and crying out, "salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb."

I read your post before. It is still there I’m quite sure. And it is linked for anyone who wants to know what it says.
I won’t repost the same answer because you know where it is and I haven’t changed it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I did read your post but it seems you did not read mine.

What I said
"You have suggested that 1Jn 2:2 does not support the view that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world"

Your reply
"I am suggesting is that Christ is not the propitiation for all the people in the world"

What is the difference Martin?

The text says that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. What we have to decide is what it means that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. I have tried to show that it cannot mean that He is the propitiation for all the peaple in the whole world unless one takes the view that all the people in the whole world are saved.
So what we now have to decide is what the text actually means. The word kosmos does not usually mean 'everyone.' Its natual meaning is 'world.' For example, look at Acts 17:24. "God who made the world and everything in it....' Here, and in many other places, kosmos means 'Planet Earth.' Elsewhere, as I have shown, it means the world as it lies under Satan. It has a whole variety of meanings, and it is the job of the exegete to explain what the true meaning is. I will come to that in due course, but I have a great pile of things to do over the next few days so it won't be that quickly.

 

[Jerome]

If you were actually concerned with the actual words of the Bible....you would not add gratuitously the words 'the sins of' to 1 John 2:2, because they do not exist there in any ancient manuscript as I wrote before.

Oops, the Reformed translators of the vaunted Geneva Bible didn't get MM's memo about 'adding gratuitously!'? And he is the reconciliation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJB: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
even John MacArthur's 'Legacy Standard Bible' thought it necessary to 'add' [gratuitously, MM?] a couple words ["those of"]: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Ben1445]

I have tried to show that it cannot mean that He is the propitiation for all the peaple in the whole world unless one takes the view that all the people in the whole world are saved.

But this is not an accurate statement. You’re trying to look only at propitiation. It is not the only word involved. Propitiation means that God is satisfied with Jesus. Those who trust Jesus are not imputed iniquity, they are imputed righteousness.
But if you only want to look at propitiation and no other doctrines, then do it without discussing sin, man, God, or any other doctrine. Since it is obvious that you cannot, stop trying to look at propitiation as if imputation is an unrelated doctrine.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Oops, the Reformed translators of the vaunted Geneva Bible didn't get MM's memo about 'adding gratuitously!'? And he is the reconciliation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJB: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
even John MacArthur's 'Legacy Standard Bible' thought it necessary to 'add' [gratuitously, MM?] a couple words ["those of"]: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

They did get the message. They put 'the sins of'in brackets to show that the words don't exist in any ancient manuscipt

 

[Silverhair]

The text says that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. What we have to decide is what it means that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world. I have tried to show that it cannot mean that He is the propitiation for all the peaple in the whole world unless one takes the view that all the people in the whole world are saved.
So what we now have to decide is what the text actually means. The word kosmos does not usually mean 'everyone.' Its natual meaning is 'world.' For example, look at Acts 17:24. "God who made the world and everything in it....' Here, and in many other places, kosmos means 'Planet Earth.' Elsewhere, as I have shown, it means the world as it lies under Satan. It has a whole variety of meanings, and it is the job of the exegete to explain what the true meaning is. I will come to that in due course, but I have a great pile of things to do over the next few days so it won't be that quickly.

Actually Martin you have missed the intent of that verse.

By reading 1Jn 2:1-2 and letting the words inform you rather than reading your view into the text it will clear up your confusion.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation G2434 for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation is a noun in this verse and as such it is telling us what Christ is. He is the only means of appeasing God the Father.
Is there any other means by which man can be saved? Jesus says there is not in Jn 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

John is telling us in 1Jn 2:2 there is not. He is telling us that Christ is the only means for those that believe and the only means by which anyone {the whole world} can be saved.
We see this again in 1Jn_4:10 where John is writing to believers and pointing out that Christ is the only means by which their sins were covered.

As you correctly said the word "world" can mean different things. But it seems you have ignored the context and instead have jumped to other verses to find support for your understanding of the word.

Christ being the propitiation for the whole world does not mean that all will be saved. That is something that you are reading into the text. What it does means is that all can be saved through faith in Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

But this is not an accurate statement. You’re trying to look only at propitiation. It is not the only word involved. Propitiation means that God is satisfied with Jesus. Those who trust Jesus are not imputed iniquity, they are imputed righteousness.
But if you only want to look at propitiation and no other doctrines, then do it without discussing sin, man, God, or any other doctrine. Since it is obvious that you cannot, stop trying to look at propitiation as if imputation is an unrelated doctrine.

I think you'll find it is an accurate statement; or if it isn't, you haven't shown why not. I'm just looking at this verse. Propitiation means, not that God is satisfied with Jesus - He was always that (Matt. 3:17)! - but that He is satisfied with the the propitiation accomplished by the Lord Jesus on the cross; He is propitiated by it, and if our Lord is the propitiation for all the people in the whole world, then God is propitiated in respect of everyone who ever lived.
But the text doesn't say that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for all the people in the world, does it?

Imputation does not appear in 1 John 2:2, but if you want to try and show how it fits, be my guest But I'm finding is increasingly amusing to see all the people who keep saying that they "Just believe the words" desperately trying to add words to the text to protect their shibboleths and doctrinal sacred cows.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Actually Martin you have missed the intent of that verse.

By reading 1Jn 2:1-2 and letting the words inform you rather than reading your view into the text it will clear up your confusion.

You go on about this in almost every post you make - it's a form of virtue signalling that you obviously love - but I think we shall find that it is you who is clinging to your faulty understanding of the text.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation G2434 for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

That is absolutely fine, so long as everyone is aware that the words 'those of' do not appear in any ancient manuscript.

Propitiation is a noun in this verse and as such it is telling us what Christ is. He is the only means of appeasing God the Father.
Is there any other means by which man can be saved? Jesus says there is not in Jn 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

This is fine too. I'm sure we're all grateful to you for telling us that 'propitiation' is a noun.

John is telling us in 1Jn 2:2 there is not. He is telling us that Christ is the only means for those that believe and the only means by which anyone {the whole world} can be saved.
We see this again in 1Jn_4:10 where John is writing to believers and pointing out that Christ is the only means by which their sins were covered.

Where do we see the word 'only' in either 1 John 2:2 or 1 John 4:10? Nowhere! I agree with you that Christ is the only means by which sins are covered, but that is not what either text is actually saying. It is what you want the text to say. 1 John 4:10 is about the love of God in sending the Lord Jesus. 1 John 2:2 simply declares that He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for our sins, but for the whole world.
Now, for the umpteenth time, the text does not say that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of every person in the world; you are reading that in to support your own incorrect viewpoint. But if it did mean that then God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, which plainly, He isn't (e.g. John 3:36).

As you correctly said the word "world" can mean different things. But it seems you have ignored the context and instead have jumped to other verses to find support for your understanding of the word.

Actually, I haven't said what I believe the verse means yet. Be patient! It's coming. First, I want to show what it cannot mean.

Christ being the propitiation for the whole world does not mean that all will be saved. That is something that you are reading into the text. What it does means is that all can be saved through faith in Him.

Again, I haven't said that Christ being the propitiation for the whole world means that all will be saved. What I am saying is that if He is the propitiation for all the people in the world then it must follow that all the people in the world will be saved. But of course, the text doesn't say that. It's just what you really, really want it to say.

What the verse does is to refute universal atonement.

 

[Silverhair]

You go on about this in almost every post you make - it's a form of virtue signalling that you obviously love - but I think we shall find that it is you who is clinging to your faulty understanding of the text.

That is absolutely fine, so long as everyone is aware that the words 'those of' do not appear in any ancient manuscript.

This is fine too. I'm sure we're all grateful to you for telling us that 'propitiation' is a noun.

Where do we see the word 'only' in either 1 John 2:2 or 1 John 4:10? Nowhere! I agree with you that Christ is the only means by which sins are covered, but that is not what either text is actually saying. It is what you want the text to say. 1 John 4:10 is about the love of God in sending the Lord Jesus. 1 John 2:2 simply declares that He is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for our sins, but for the whole world.
Now, for the umpteenth time, the text does not say that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of every person in the world; you are reading that in to support your own incorrect viewpoint. But if it did mean that then God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, which plainly, He isn't (e.g. John 3:36).

Actually, I haven't said what I believe the verse means yet. Be patient! It's coming. First, I want to show what it cannot mean.

Again, I haven't said that Christ being the propitiation for the whole world means that all will be saved. What I am saying is that if He is the propitiation for all the people in the world then it must follow that all the people in the world will be saved. But of course, the text doesn't say that. It's just what you really, really want it to say.

What the verse does is to refute universal atonement.

That you missed the intent of the text is worth going on about. But it would seem that you are more interested in just playing silly word games in your responses than actually dealing with the text.

I pointed out that propitiation in 1Jn 2:2 is a noun as you did not seem to know that from what you had written. John telling us that Christ is the propitiation for the whole world does not mean that all the world would then have to be saved as you seem to think. What it tells us that He is the only means of anyone's salvation.

You say on one hand that you agree that Christ is the only means of salvation and then question my saying that that was what John was teaching in that verse.

To quote you "the text does not say that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of every person in the world;". That has got to be one of the strangest comments I have seen you make.

Propitiation in 1Jn_2:2 does not mean that we are forgiven but that Christ is the means by which the wrath of an offended one, God, has been turned away. We see this here and also 1Jn_4:10 and Rom_3:25

"He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." I know you struggle with accepting the truth as found right in front of you but for you to deny clear text shows that you are more concerned in defending your preconceived views than you are with following the word of God.

The text does show us that Christ is the only means of anyone's salvation, are you suggesting that there is another way for one to be saved?

So when you say "that if He is the propitiation for all the people in the world then it must follow that all the people in the world will be saved" I do have to ask where you find that in the text.

 

[Ben1445]

I think you'll find it is an accurate statement; or if it isn't, you haven't shown why not. I'm just looking at this verse. Propitiation means, not that God is satisfied with Jesus - He was always that (Matt. 3:17)! - but that He is satisfied with the the propitiation accomplished by the Lord Jesus on the cross; He is propitiated by it, and if our Lord is the propitiation for all the people in the whole world, then God is propitiated in respect of everyone who ever lived.
But the text doesn't say that the Lord Jesus is the propitiation for all the people in the world, does it?

It sure does. Read it and weep. I’m not sure why you hate unbelievers so much as to say that God created them knowing that He was creating them to destroy them. So much for being rich in mercy.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I don’t read anything else here except that Jesus is the propitiation, Jesus is the satisfaction, the atonement for our sins. And not just yours and mine, but also for the whole world.

In the mean while, God still imputes iniquity to the unbelievers even though Christ has provided satisfaction for any and all sin except that of unbelief.

Imputation does not appear in 1 John 2:2, but if you want to try and show how it fits, be my guest

I suppose you don’t believe in imputation then because it is not in the verses that you are reading? Ignore the parts of the Bible that don’t fit what you want to believe?

But I'm finding is increasingly amusing to see all the people who keep saying that they "Just believe the words" desperately trying to add words to the text to protect their shibboleths and doctrinal sacred cows.

You appear more foolish by trying to say that God didn’t mean the whole world.
You can argue about whether or not “the sins of” should have been added to the text, but that makes no real difference. If you choose not to read those words, it is still evident that we are discussing sins and not dirt or people.
But you can keep ignoring that the text says the complete cosmos and keep telling yourself that God doesn’t mean what He said. But I won’t join you in it. I am glad that you will have the opportunity to understand who God really is in eternity. You certainly have bungled it in propitiation.

 

[DaveXR650]

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation G2434 for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I see this back and forth and I certainly don't think that there is a fixed amount of "propitiation" somewhere such that anyone should ever worry that it wasn't meant for them or that there isn't enough to go around. Yet, those two verses being together, doesn't it seem that they should be kept in context? "My little children" is a specific group, obviously the believers who John was writing to, who are being instructed about what happens if they sin. They do have an "Advocate" and that Advocate intercedes for them. The exclusivity is that this is only speaking of those who have an "Advocate" with the Father. John seems to have no problem limiting the propitiation at first to those who have an Advocate rather than just saying "everyone". So I think the last part of verse 2 is simply saying that this includes all those who come later and read this in different times and places - that also have Christ as an Advocate. That's where the exclusivity lies. John was referring to the whole world of those who are also within the concept of "my little children", rather than everyone in general.

I part with most Calvinists in that in other uses of the "world" I do believe it means everyone. John 3:16 is limited in that it applied only to those who believe but the whole world was loved and "whosoever" means what it says. But the above verses are only for those who are in the group of those who have Christ as an Advocate and it is a stretch to exceed that. That does not mean that Christ is not offered to be the Advocate of anyone who would come to him though. We have that as a direct promise and it over rides our theological interpretations.

 

[JonC]

Actually Martin you have missed the intent of that verse.

By reading 1Jn 2:1-2 and letting the words inform you rather than reading your view into the text it will clear up your confusion.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation G2434 for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Propitiation is a noun in this verse and as such it is telling us what Christ is. He is the only means of appeasing God the Father.
Is there any other means by which man can be saved? Jesus says there is not in Jn 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

John is telling us in 1Jn 2:2 there is not. He is telling us that Christ is the only means for those that believe and the only means by which anyone {the whole world} can be saved.
We see this again in 1Jn_4:10 where John is writing to believers and pointing out that Christ is the only means by which their sins were covered.

As you correctly said the word "world" can mean different things. But it seems you have ignored the context and instead have jumped to other verses to find support for your understanding of the word.

Christ being the propitiation for the whole world does not mean that all will be saved. That is something that you are reading into the text. What it does means is that all can be saved through faith in Him.

AMEN!!!!!


I have been trying to explain that to him for years (the verse is speaking of Jesus - He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

And, if we read the other times John uses "world" in this chapter (4 more times) he uses it to refer to all of natural man (a sinful world from which we are called).

 

[JonC]

I see this back and forth and I certainly don't think that there is a fixed amount of "propitiation" ...

The issue is more that the verse is speaking of Christ - He is the Propitiation. The only time Scripture speaks of our sins being propitiated is in the present (if we sin, the result of a propitiation recieved by faith).

When one reads their theology into passages they are bound to miss what those passages actually state.

 

[JonC]

I agree that if ‘world’ means ‘every individual’ and propitiation equals automatic application, you get universalism. My point is that propitiation is provision, not automatic application. Christ is the propitiation in the sense of sufficient, once‑for‑all satisfaction, applied to those who believe. That avoids universalism without denying the plain language of 1 John 2:2.

The problem comes in when people read PSA into the verse.

If the Cross was God punishing our sins that were laid on Jesus then only and all of those people who's sins were laid on Jesus are saved.

If God laid the sins of the whole world, without exception, on Jesus and punished those sins then the result is universal salvation. God had to only lay the sins of the elect on Jesus, punish only those sins.

That is the "universal salvation" argument Calvinists make. The reason is they hold a very shallow view of sins (they can be remedied by punishing them on Christ) and a very low view of divine justice (justice can be satisfied by punishing a sinners sins laid on Christ).

Calvinism is the ultimate form of "easy believism", and this is why they cannot accept anything but a limited atonement. It is the original and most consistent form of PSA. It is logical. It matches human wisdom. It makes sence. And it is wrong.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The problem comes in when people read PSA into the verse.

No sir! The problem is when ppl read PSA out of the verse.