Propitiation

[David Lamb]

The problem comes in when people read PSA into the verse.

If the Cross was God punishing our sins that were laid on Jesus then only and all of those people who's sins were laid on Jesus are saved.

If God laid the sins of the whole world, without exception, on Jesus and punished those sins then the result is universal salvation. God had to only lay the sins of the elect on Jesus, punish only those sins.

That is the "universal salvation" argument Calvinists make. The reason is they hold a very shallow view of sins (they can be remedied by punishing them on Christ) and a very low view of divine justice (justice can be satisfied by punishing a sinners sins laid on Christ).

Calvinism is the ultimate form of "easy believism", and this is why they cannot accept anything but a limited atonement. It is the original and most consistent form of PSA. It is logical. It matches human wisdom. It makes sence. And it is wrong.

Those Christians I know who believe the doctrines of grace don't view sin lightly. They realise that sin is so serious that God sent His Son to take on human flesh, and to die in order to save sinners.

 

[JonC]

Those Christians I know who believe the doctrines of grace don't view sin lightly. They realise that sin is so serious that God sent His Son to take on human flesh, and to die in order to save sinners.

They think they do not view sin lightly, and compared to many religions they do not. But in comparison to traditional Christianity they view sin very lightly.

We all agree that God sent His Son to take on human flesh, to come "in the likeness of sinful flesh", to be "made sin for us", to "share [our] humanity", to "share our infirmity". And yes, this is because of sin.

BUT prior to the Reformation the idea that divine justice could be met by God punishing our sins on Christ was foreign to our faith. Sin was viewed as much greater an offense, much larger a problem.


Viewing the remedy for sin as God punishing those sins on Christ is viewing sin very lightly in comparison to traditional Christianity. Viewing punishment as satisfying the demands of divine justice is minimizing divine justice.

Sin is much greater a problem than Calvinism believes, and God is more holy a God than their doctrine will allow. There is no getting around that when you view Calvinism alongside a traditional form of the faith. Calvinism is simply "easy believism".

 

[DaveXR650]

Sin is much greater a problem than Calvinism believes, and God is more holy a God than their doctrine will allow. There is no getting around that when you view Calvinism alongside a traditional form of the faith. Calvinism is simply "easy believism".

Are we talking about the same Calvinists as the Puritans? The same ones who said to claim to be born again and to continue in any known sin is an impossibility. The ones who say that the only way men can on their own provide just recompense to God for the smallest sin, which an infinite offense against a Holy God, is to suffer endlessly? The ones who have been ridiculed for hundreds of years now for living such exact and attempted holy lives?

Regarding the verses in 1John, do you know what Owen wrote about the purpose and order of the gospel as meant in those verses?
"And as the whole effect of the doctrine of the gospel in holiness and obedience consists in the soul's being cast into the frame and mold of it, Romans 6:17; so the whole of the apostasy from the gospel is principally the casting of the into the mould of this false reasoning, that sin may be indulged unto upon the account of grace and pardon." In other words, he complains that people tend to view the propitiation available when they sin while forgetting that the first point was "that we sin not". (From John Owen's works book 19 Indwelling Sin in Believers, chapter 12 of 17 chapters of the main man who leads the sect that doesn't take sin seriously enough)

Of all the statements I have ever heard anyone make on here, the idea that the Calvinists don't take sin seriously is the most ill informed and ignorant yet.