Propitiation

[Silverhair]

If what you mean is that Christ is the source of propitiation for anyone who comes to him, whether those spoken of as "my little children" by John or those who come to him from other places or times then I agree with you. I just feel that this whole way of discussing propitiation as if there is a nebulous cloud of existing propitiation which we then argue as to who can get it is meaningless. All who come to Christ will have Christ as their Advocate, and he is the propitiation for them and no one else. But I do believe that this includes all who come. The Calvinists taught this, and whether you have an explanation that logically ties those who choose to come with the work of the Spirit in drawing them, and the atonement being only for them - as long as the agreement regarding the fact that the offer to come is there and real for all, I don't see a problem unless you are a pastor in a denomination or a teacher at a school with a certain doctrinal stance. For the rest of us I see no problem.

The text is clear Dave, He {Christ} IS the propitiation for the "whole world", not just part of it as you are suggesting. He is the only means of salvation for all people unless you think there is some other way that people can be saved. Do you have another meaning for "whole world", it seems that you do.

By your logic "he is the propitiation for them and no one else" then it is only those that will later trust in Christ that are the whole world that John is referring to. But as we see in [1jn 5:19] the "whole world" is under the power of the evil one. So then logically if your view is correct the "whole world" will repent and trust in Christ and that is universalism.

But as you said "The Calvinists taught this" so you are following a man made view rather than the clear word of God. So that is a real problem.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

In relation to atheism, perhaps. But it is a superficial view of sin and a very low view of God (His righteousness, holiness, and justice) compared to traditional Christianity.

Biblically the punishment of sin does not satisfy divine justice as sin is too much an offense to God and God's justice is too great. Punishing sins is superficial. Period.

1 John 1:7. '..... And the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all iniquity.'
1 Peter 1:18-19. '... Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The text is clear Dave, He {Christ} IS the propitiation for the "whole world"..... He is the only means of salvation for all people

Once again, you are confusing the 'whole world' with 'all the people in the world..' You are also conflating 'propitiation' with 'means of salvation.' If God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, everyone will be saved. Is that what you believe?

 

[DaveXR650]

The text is clear Dave, He {Christ} IS the propitiation for the "whole world", not just part of it as you are suggesting. He is the only means of salvation for all people unless you think there is some other way that people can be saved. Do you have another meaning for "whole world", it seems that you do.

I don't think there is as much of a difference as you think in this. Yes, in the case of "whole world" I believe it is limited to the believers John is addressing in the passage and in addition believers who come later and from areas around the whole world. And I make this distinction because "propitiation" is a seldom used word in the Bible and it is a word of action in that it involves the actual restoring of the relationship with God, the placating of wrath against us and these things only happen to those who come by the obedience of faith - even though such ones may be anywhere in the world or at any time.

In the case of "world" in John 3:16, I believe there is no reason that doesn't mean everyone in the world because the offer that if you believe you will be saved is an absolute, universal offer. That being so, the verse is saying then that God's love was toward the whole world, meaning everyone. "Propitiation" is the actual effecting of the relationship to God and it can only occur to those who are saved and is actually a part of the description of them being saved - therefore it cannot mean everyone. Even in John 3:16 there is a limiting factor applied in that "whosoever believeth in him" is the one who benefits from God's love. I realize there is a lot of overlap and apparent contradiction from the various theological views in this but as far as I can tell even Calvin himself had a universal view of "world" in John 3:16. I don't know what he said, if anything, about 1John because I don't have my commentary any more on my Kindle.

 

[Ben1445]

Maybe. Provide an example.

What part of my belief system is not "what is wtitten"?


Which do you think is unbiblical?

1. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment.

That is fine.
How about the second death?
You seem to miss the point of the statement “appointed unto man once to die.”
Everyone will be separated from their flesh.
After that judgement.
It doesn’t say there is no death for anyone after judgement. It doesn’t say it is appointed to man to die only once.

2. Sin begats death as a wage (something earned)

A penalty is a wage. It is an earned negative.
What penalties do you know of that are not earned?

3. Christ defeated the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil.

Proper perspective is needed here.
Satan holds the power of death as the accuser of the brethren. He does not have authority.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is the Lord that says depart from me into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It appears to me that you give the devil too much credit.

4. Judgment comes after death.

And death comes after judgment.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

5. Jesus shared our humanity, He came in the form of sinful flesh - was made sin for us, became a curse for us

And the curse is a penalty, hence “penal.”

And since He has taken death for us, we, having taken Jesus into ourselves will not die because Christ is our life.

John 6:50
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

6. Jesus suffered death, sin produces death, Jesus has no sin.

So He took on our sin, and died for our sin.
That is the substitution portion.

 

[Ben1445]

While you are wrestling with a way to reject 1-6,

Don’t flatter yourself. Your intellect on this subject is not that difficult to resist.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445

While you are wrestling with a way to reject 1-6, and trying to find a verse I reject, I have questions about your belief system as opposed to "what is written".

This will help us discover which of us believes "what is written" and which of us has been carried away be the philosophy of men trusting what they think is really taught over "what is written".

What verse states that Jesus suffered God's wrath?

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.


Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

What verse states that sins can be remediated by punishing those sins on Another?

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

What verse describes divine justice as collecting debts of sin?

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If you’re not in Christ by faith, then you are measured, reckoned, by debt.

What verse states that the Cross was divine punishment?

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,

What verse states that Jesus died to free us from God's bondage?

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.

What verse states that Jesus suffered punishment instead of us?

But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The example of Isaac and the ram. The ram literally in the place of Isaac. The burnt offerings. The sacrifice with the sins of the people, figuratively laid on the sacrifice. The redeeming of the first born, life for life literally. In the case of animals, if it was not redeemed, it would be killed. In the case of people, there was no option to not redeem them.

What verse states that forgiveness is punishing another?

because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

What verse states that it is just to punish the Just to clear the guilty?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

I think you, my friend, will find that you are the one who has abandoned God's words for human wisdom and have been carried away from "the faith once delivered".

I think what I will find is that you will ignore everything that I sent you, all of which comes from Isaiah 53 unless otherwise noted.

But surprise me.

 

[Ben1445]

Once again, you are confusing the 'whole world' with 'all the people in the world..'

So you believe that Christ suffered for the sins of all the people in the world? That is good. I don’t think anyone believes that Jesus died to save the dirt that will be melted with fervent heat.

Now that we have established that Jesus died for the sins of all the people in the world, who is imputed sin, and who is imputed righteousness?

You are also conflating 'propitiation' with 'means of salvation.' If God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, everyone will be saved. Is that what you believe?

I think you are the one conflating here and that is why you disagree. Is the atonement of Christs death not propitiation and means of salvation both?

Please explain what Jesus did differently for each.

 

[JonC]

1 John 1:7. '..... And the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all iniquity.'
1 Peter 1:18-19. '... Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot

Yes, Christ's blood cleansesbus from all unrighteousness. We were purchased with the precious blood of Christ.

My point, however, is that Calvinism has a light view of sin and a low view of God's righteousness (in comparison to traditional Christianity which holds that punishment cannot resolve our sins).

But you are correct that we both believe those verses - you just hold a very low view of the work of Christ.

 

[JonC]

That is fine.
How about the second death?
You seem to miss the point of the statement “appointed unto man once to die.”
Everyone will be separated from their flesh.
After that judgement.
It doesn’t say there is no death for anyone after judgement. It doesn’t say it is appointed to man to die only once.


A penalty is a wage. It is an earned negative.
What penalties do you know of that are not earned?


Proper perspective is needed here.
Satan holds the power of death as the accuser of the brethren. He does not have authority.

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is the Lord that says depart from me into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It appears to me that you give the devil too much credit.


And death comes after judgment.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


And the curse is a penalty, hence “penal.”

And since He has taken death for us, we, having taken Jesus into ourselves will not die because Christ is our life.

John 6:50
This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


So He took on our sin, and died for our sin.
That is the substitution portion.

I agree the curse is penal, just like the wages of sin being death, the death that sin produces, is also penal.

I agree that Christ bore our sins, died for our sins, is the Son of Man, shared in our humanity, is the second Adam. This is indeed substitutionary.

I disagreed about penal substitution.

I agree with the passages that you provide. I disagree that the Bible teaches your philosophy. Instead I believe the Bible teaches God's words.

 

[JonC]

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.


Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.



Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

If you’re not in Christ by faith, then you are measured, reckoned, by debt.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,


He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.

But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The example of Isaac and the ram. The ram literally in the place of Isaac. The burnt offerings. The sacrifice with the sins of the people, figuratively laid on the sacrifice. The redeeming of the first born, life for life literally. In the case of animals, if it was not redeemed, it would be killed. In the case of people, there was no option to not redeem them.


because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
and he was numbered with the transgressors;
and he bare the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:



I think what I will find is that you will ignore everything that I sent you, all of which comes from Isaiah 53 unless otherwise noted.

But surprise me.

It shoukd not come to you as a surprise that I believe Isaiah 53 in its entirety as I have argued those passages for decades.

I simply believe that Scripture means the actual biblical text (not what you think the text "really" teaches).

I do believe that Christ makes intercession for us (we have an Advocate with the Father in Christ when we sin).


My point is when you quote Scripture you are stating my faith but when you exceed Scripture you are stating your faith. You lean on an understanding ratger than God's words.


Jesus bore our sins bodily. He was despised, and we had no regard for Him. However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried; Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted, struck down by God, and humiliated. But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

But the Lord desired to crush Him, causing Him grief; If He renders Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.


That is what I believe (as it is written), not your explanation of what it really teaches.


Do you also believe that "it is wrong to punish the Just", that "punishing the innocent and clearing the guilty are both abominations"?

 

[Ben1445]

I agree the curse is penal, just like the wages of sin being death, the death that sin produces, is also penal.

I agree that Christ bore our sins, died for our sins, is the Son of Man, shared in our humanity, is the second Adam. This is indeed substitutionary.

I disagreed about penal substitution.

I agree with the passages that you provide. I disagree that the Bible teaches your philosophy. Instead I believe the Bible teaches God's words.

What does that even mean. You agree with everything I said. But you don’t agree.
Huh?
What is it that you don’t believe that you haven’t already asked?

 

[JonC]

I agree the curse is penal, just like the wages of sin being death, the death that sin produces, is also penal.

I agree that Christ bore our sins, died for our sins, is the Son of Man, shared in our humanity, is the second Adam. This is indeed substitutionary.

I disagreed about penal substitution.

I agree with the passages that you provide. I disagree that the Bible teaches your philosophy. Instead I believe the Bible teaches God's words.

There you go, @Ben1445 .... acting like a child rather than engaging. This is how I know that - at some level - you realize you are leaning on your own understanding (you become emotional and try to make a point of your inadequacies by being passive aggressive).

 

[JonC]

What does that even mean. You agree with everything I said. But you don’t agree.
Huh?
What is it that you don’t believe that you haven’t already asked?

No. I agree with every passage you quoted. I agree that sin produces death, the wage of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin. Man being sold under this bondage is a penalty of sin.

I agree that Christ being the Son of Man, the Second Adam, sharing our humanity, bearing our sin, etc. is substitutionary (just as Adam being a representative substitute for natural man).

I do not believe the philosophical conceot of penal substitution is viable, much less biblical. I do not agree with your philosophy.

I do not agree with everything that you have said (I do not agree with what you understand the Bible to really teach).

 

[Ben1445]

It shoukd not come to you as a surprise that I believe Isaiah 53 in its entirety as I have argued those passages for decades.

I simply believe that Scripture means the actual biblical text (not what you think the text "really" teaches).

I do believe that Christ makes intercession for us (we have an Advocate with the Father in Christ when we sin).


My point is when you quote Scripture you are stating my faith but when you exceed Scripture you are stating your faith. You lean on an understanding ratger than God's words.


Jesus bore our sins bodily. He was despised, and we had no regard for Him. However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried; Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted, struck down by God, and humiliated. But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

But the Lord desired to crush Him, causing Him grief; If He renders Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.


That is what I believe (as it is written), not your explanation of what it really teaches.

I don’t believe your explanation either, even though you said you agreed with what I said.

Do you also believe that "it is wrong to punish the Just", that "punishing the innocent and clearing the guilty are both abominations"?

Did you ever pay any fines for your children? Or maybe your parents for you?
Broken windows any expenses ever that came as a result of someone’s actions that caused a penalty or debt?

Did you engage in abominable activity and pay for someone else’s ticket or pay the damages, or have you been the recipient of abominable activity?

When Jesus gave Himself, it is not God searching out someone innocent to blame and making them suffer.
It is God taking the responsibility upon Himself and showing men mercy.
It is not like looking into a crowd of people and picking an unrelated innocent person. It is God stepping in and intercepting our penalty on our behalf.
Afterwards, it is God who imputes sin to unbelievers and righteousness to believers.

 

[Ben1445]

There you go, @Ben1445 .... acting like a child rather than engaging. This is how I know that - at some level - you realize you are leaning on your own understanding (you become emotional and try to make a point of your inadequacies by being passive aggressive).

I have engaged. I am just baffled by your response. It makes no sense. You said you agreed with everything I said. You said it is penal. You said there is substitution.
You haven’t explained what it is that comes along with a penalty and someone substituting in for a penalty that you disagree with. The only thing you have actually denied is the title.

 

[Ben1445]

No. I agree with every passage you quoted. I agree that sin produces death, the wage of sin is death. Death is the penalty for sin. Man being sold under this bondage is a penalty of sin.

Penal

I agree that Christ being the Son of Man, the Second Adam, sharing our humanity, bearing our sin, etc. is substitutionary (just as Adam being a representative substitute for natural man).

Substitution

I do not believe the philosophical conceot of penal substitution is viable, much less biblical. I do not agree with your philosophy.

Doublespeak

I do not agree with everything that you have said (I do not agree with what you understand the Bible to really teach).

I don’t know what you are talking about. I’m not sure if you believe what you believe.

 

[Ben1445]

It shoukd not come to you as a surprise that I believe Isaiah 53 in its entirety as I have argued those passages for decades.

I simply believe that Scripture means the actual biblical text (not what you think the text "really" teaches).

I do believe that Christ makes intercession for us (we have an Advocate with the Father in Christ when we sin).


My point is when you quote Scripture you are stating my faith but when you exceed Scripture you are stating your faith. You lean on an understanding ratger than God's words.


Jesus bore our sins bodily. He was despised, and we had no regard for Him. However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried; Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted, struck down by God, and humiliated. But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; The punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, And by His wounds we are healed.

But the Lord desired to crush Him, causing Him grief; If He renders Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied;By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many,
For He will bear their wrongdoings.


That is what I believe (as it is written), not your explanation of what it really teaches.


Do you also believe that "it is wrong to punish the Just", that "punishing the innocent and clearing the guilty are both abominations"?

Maybe if you would go through, point by point like I did and respond to each point to explain what you think is misinterpreting Scripture, maybe I can figure out what you are talking about.

 

[Silverhair]

Once again, you are confusing the 'whole world' with 'all the people in the world..' You are also conflating 'propitiation' with 'means of salvation.' If God is propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, everyone will be saved. Is that what you believe?

Martin you need to learn how to read without injecting your preconceived views into the text.

1Jn 2:2 says Christ IS the propitiation, He is the means of appeasing God. God being appeased does not mean people are saved. We are only saved through faith not before.

The only person saved at the cross was the thief that trusted in Christ.

If the "whole world" of 1Jn 2:2 does not mean all the people of the world what does it mean Martin? Your good at saying "no" but I have yet to see you provide any real support for your view.

 

[JonC]

I don’t believe your explanation either, even though you said you agreed with what I said.


Did you ever pay any fines for your children? Or maybe your parents for you?
Broken windows any expenses ever that came as a result of someone’s actions that caused a penalty or debt?

Did you engage in abominable activity and pay for someone else’s ticket or pay the damages, or have you been the recipient of abominable activity?

When Jesus gave Himself, it is not God searching out someone innocent to blame and making them suffer.
It is God taking the responsibility upon Himself and showing men mercy.
It is not like looking into a crowd of people and picking an unrelated innocent person. It is God stepping in and intercepting our penalty on our behalf.
Afterwards, it is God who imputes sin to unbelievers and righteousness to believers.

You are reasoning away Scripture.

Sin is not a fine to be paid. It is a wage (a penalty) that is earned. "Sin produces death". Christ died to defeat the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil.

God has described justice (do not punish the Just, do not clear the guilty).

You seem to have chosen "easy believism" because it "tickles your ears". But this is because that neo-Christian faith views sins very lightly, divine justice very superficially.

You just did that by equating sins to a fine that must be paid.


If you equate sin to anything for illustration you should go all the way - make it the worst crime (even then it would not measure up to the depravity it is).

You molested a small child and murdered him and his mother. You are guilty and sentenced to death. After passing sentence the judge's son comes forward and says he will take your sentence so you go free.

Even that is superficial compared to the depravity of sin (and obviously to the justice of God as it is unjust to clear the guilty and to punish the Just).