Propitiation

[JonC]

Maybe if you would go through, point by point like I did and respond to each point to explain what you think is misinterpreting Scripture, maybe I can figure out what you are talking about.

I will tonight (I work tonight). Maybe we can see where we actually differ more clearly.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't think there is as much of a difference as you think in this. Yes, in the case of "whole world" I believe it is limited to the believers John is addressing in the passage and in addition believers who come later and from areas around the whole world. And I make this distinction because "propitiation" is a seldom used word in the Bible and it is a word of action in that it involves the actual restoring of the relationship with God, the placating of wrath against us and these things only happen to those who come by the obedience of faith - even though such ones may be anywhere in the world or at any time.

In the case of "world" in John 3:16, I believe there is no reason that doesn't mean everyone in the world because the offer that if you believe you will be saved is an absolute, universal offer. That being so, the verse is saying then that God's love was toward the whole world, meaning everyone. "Propitiation" is the actual effecting of the relationship to God and it can only occur to those who are saved and is actually a part of the description of them being saved - therefore it cannot mean everyone. Even in John 3:16 there is a limiting factor applied in that "whosoever believeth in him" is the one who benefits from God's love. I realize there is a lot of overlap and apparent contradiction from the various theological views in this but as far as I can tell even Calvin himself had a universal view of "world" in John 3:16. I don't know what he said, if anything, about 1John because I don't have my commentary any more on my Kindle.

Dave you do realize that the word propitiation can be both a noun and a verb. In these three verses Rom_3:25, 1Jn_2:2 & 1Jn_4:10 it is in the noun form and is telling us what Christ is. He is the means of appeasing God.

In Heb_2:17 it is in the verb form and that is telling us what Christ did.

The first three verses do not support your view. Both you and Martin have missed that in your responses and because of that have made the same error. John is not saying the whole world is appeased but rather that Christ is the only means by which the whole world can be appeased.

 

[Ben1445]

You are reasoning away Scripture.

Sin is not a fine to be paid. It is a wage (a penalty) that is earned.

And is reckoned of debt without faith. Thank you Paul for the use of the word debt.

"Sin produces death". Christ died to defeat the power of the one who holds the power of death - that is the devil.

This is where you credit Satan too much.

Satan only uses death to his advantage. Jesus took the strength out of the power of death. Death has no more sting. Jesus changed a formidable weapon into nothing.

God has described justice (do not punish the Just, do not clear the guilty).

You are adding to the text by imposing the idea that the just means the Just.

It is you who is adding to “what is written.”

You seem to have chosen "easy believism" because it "tickles your ears".

You show your ignorance.

But this is because that neo-Christian faith views sins very lightly, divine justice very superficially.

You justify yourself. And your justification of yourself does not preach against me. Your actions on the board are not done in secret. You are the acting definition of neo-Christianity that you accuse me of. Go review your own posting history.

You just did that by equating sins to a fine that must be paid.

Like Paul says, if it is not reckoned of faith, it is reckoned of debt.

If you equate sin to anything for illustration you should go all the way - make it the worst crime (even then it would not measure up to the depravity it is).

Okay, you have been sentenced for your worst crime and if it is a life sentence, the value you must give is equal to your life until you breath your last breath. You must give that to the jurisdiction of someone else.
Or a death sentence: you must give your life to be shorted. Your life is forfeited to equalized your debt to society and satisfy the judgment against you.
That is why when folks get out people say they have paid their debt to society.

You molested a small child and murdered him and his mother. You are guilty and sentenced to death. After passing sentence the judge's son comes forward and says he will take your sentence so you go free.

Yes. Jesus did that.(not for me personally strictly by your example) That is why He offers eternal life, because we may all take part in the second death except for the gift of God.

Even that is superficial compared to the depravity of sin (and obviously to the justice of God as it is unjust to clear the guilty and to punish the Just).

You say I make light of sin, but in order for you to see the filthiness of sin, you must make it sound as bad as you can. I don’t have any problem seeing sins against the authorities and against my neighbor as egregious.

 

[DaveXR650]

The first three verses do not support your view. Both you and Martin have missed that in your responses and because of that have made the same error. John is not saying the whole world is appeased but rather that Christ is the only means by which the whole world can be appeased.

I think the difference is the same as what occurs in discussions in the scope of atonement. In both cases, if all you are saying is that propitiation is available to anyone in the whole world who might come to Christ then I agree. But I don't think it requires that we claim then that it is actually universal. The reason being, as the Calvinist would say, is that the terms mean an actual real thing taking place and like you mentioned, can be used even as a verb.

It would be like if I said "I have enough red paint that I can paint every single person in the whole world red". So I could universally offer to do so and it be a true offer. But the fact still is that if I paint you red - you are truly and literally painted red. I believe that a universal use of propitiation in 1 John would be like saying "he painted everyone red" or "propitiates God for everyone" which has to mean that actual propitiation took place for everyone - which is not true. Propitiation, atonement, and even my silly being painted red, is an obvious real action that either is, or isn't. If it is, you are saved (or painted red), if not, it could still be that the "offer" stands and is a real offer - but the difference, and I hope you can see it, is propitiation or atonement cannot be kept in buckets and exist as such like paint. There is where the illustration breaks down and it's why I think using those words like you are is slightly off. You mentioned the noun/verb use of propitiation. And you are using propitiation as if it was in a bucket, like my red paint. The difference is that my bucket of paint really is a "thing" and if I paint someone that becomes the true meaning of what occurs - the fact that the verb and noun "paint" is the same English word is incidental. "Propitiation" or "atonement" only have significance or meaning as to what they do and have no meaning as a substance that could be kept because their only meaning is as they are being applied or done. That is what a Calvinist is worried about if you say atonement or propitiation is universal. To him, he sees it as if you were saying universally, everyone gets painted red, when what you mean is that everyone is being offered a red paint job, and there is plenty of red paint in a bucket, to go around. Obviously, if everyone gets painted red they are truly painted, not potentially painted or offered to be painted. If everyone's sins are atoned for, or if God is propitiated towards everyone - they are saved, not potentially saved. And while that does make atonement or propitiation particular for those saved - it does not mean that the "offer" is not there for everyone.