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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Not True. Grant Jeffrey failed to cite the full quote in his book The Signature of God. The quote actually proves the opposite. Same with the church fathers that Walvoord quotes. Very poor scholarship.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I Hate Sin: //The Rapture
    by Aristobulus (Roger) Allen ... //

    Thank you American Orthodox Church.
    If i had a nickle for every time i've debunked
    Roger Allen's writing, i'd have enough to buy
    gas for the ride to work this morning.

    Please note I don't mention a 'secret rapture' unless
    anti-pre-trib folks mention it first.
    Please note that i never quote Darby, i prove the
    pretribulation rapture/resurrection from the Holy
    Scripture. You don't suspect Darby wrote the Holy Scripture
    do you [​IMG]

    BTW, i write my one pretrib material and don't copy it
    from others. It is poor form to depend upon recent writers
    instead of studying the Holy Bible.

    Additionally i protest the double posting of this
    long post. It shows a complete lack of respect for the
    webmaster/owner of this board. Somebody has to pay for
    the storage space??? The other posting at least was
    on-topic:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3061/3.html#000031
    In this location we were asked to give arguments FOR
    pretrib, not against it.

    Allen: //Finally, the Rapture doctrine is dangerous because it teaches Christians that they will be spared all tribulation, wrath, and danger in the last days. //

    This statement is so far off, if it was said with
    intent to deceive, it is a lie.

    1. The 'last days' started at Pentacost 33AD
    and continue to the pretribulation rapture.
    DUring that time we will have plenty of triblulation.
    If you don't have your share, i'll share some of mine
    with you :(

    2. This statement is true during the Tribulation period.
    BTW, the statement seems to not distinguish between
    the "Tribulation period", a time measured in years and
    "tribulation", a wretched condition measured in suffering.
    It will be the world, not the church suffering the
    wrath of God and much tribulation in the Tribulation period.

    2Th 1:7-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And to you who are troubled, rest with vs, when the Lord Iesus
    shalbe reuealed from heauen, with his mightie Angels,
    8 In flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know
    not God
    , and that obey not the Gospel of our Lorde Iesus Christ,
    9 Who shalbe punished with euerlasting destruction
    from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:
    10 When hee shall come to bee glorified in his Saints,
    and to bee admired in all them that beleeue
    (because our testimony among you was beleeued) in that day.

    (Notice how this scripture sumarizes the events both
    of the Rapture Coming of the Lord and the Second
    Coming in power of the Lord as one super event.
    Other scriptures show the two as seperate events.
    I included this because it shows that the coming of
    the Lord (both phases) is for the purpose of bringing
    "vengeance on them that know not God".
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I have a question for you Darby fans who aren't atuned
    unto the coming soon rapture/resurrection:

    When was the doctrine that a full blown nuclear
    exchange would 'mask' the rapture/resurrection -- when
    was that doctrine first used?

    I'll tell you, that doctrine is NOT mentioned
    directly in the Bible [​IMG] That doctrine wasn't
    really possible until the late 50's.
     
  4. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    Brother Ed, Know one is saying "you" mentioned a secret rapture, know one is saying "you" qote darby, before I pasted the Aristobulas artical up "I did quote from the Holy scripture" concerning the post trib doc. I do not depend upon recent writers just "like you don,t", I just agree with truth "like you do". Lastly, I can only say into conclusion to this doctrinal debate from your response; If you throw a stone down a dark alley and somthing screams out, you know for sure that you have hit it. We will with Jesus my brother continue this topic for the final time at the judgement seat of Christ. Brother Graham Sly.
     
  5. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    Ephraem the Syrian (ca. 370) or Isadore of Seville (ca. 630).

    "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord" (Pseudo Ephraem, "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World," Section 2).

    For the sake of example, the priesthood of all believers, by Scripture alone, etc.

    Three 8th century Latin MSS containing the sermon ascribe it to Ephraem of the 4th century, one 9th century Latin MS ascribes it to Isadore of Seville of the 7th century, various Byzantine Greek MSS and Syriac MSS from the 10th century and later, if they ascribe it to anyone, usually ascribe it to Ephraem. No scholar has suggested a date later than the beginning of Islam in the mid-7th century.

    Any way one looks at it, it is a pretribulational statement that demonstrates the antiquity of the interpretation against the frequent charges that "no one thought of the pretribulational rapture before the 19th century" nonsense.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon

    [ August 17, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Bluefalcon ]
     
  6. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    [ August 17, 2005, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Bluefalcon ]
     
  7. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Paul33 wrote:
    Yes, apples are fruit and oranges are fruit but apples are not oranges.

    My definition of saint implies "justification", thus I agree that OT/NT/Trib saints are all justified. However, only NT saints are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God. Thus, when we see in Revelation that Tribulation saints are sealed upon their forehead by angels, I think it is safe to say that the Holy Spirit isn't around to do the sealing and thus the Church isn't around, proving that the Rapture has already occurred.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

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    The whole sermon of "Ephraem" is here: "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World".

    I'd like to discuss the parts you think prove the opposite of a pretribulational rapture.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon
     
  9. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by I hate sin:
    Firstly; can you please name the "someone" between the fourth and sixth century who wrote about the pretribulation.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ephraem the Syrian (ca. 370) or Isadore of Seville (ca. 630).


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by I hate sin:
    Secondly; can you please cut and paste on the screen "Ephraem's view".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord" (Pseudo Ephraem, "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World," Section 2).


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by I hate sin:
    And, can you show me the one's that are found that were lost for "fifteen hundred years".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    For the sake of example, the priesthood of all believers, by Scripture alone, etc.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by I hate sin:
    And thirdly; can you show me the most "ancient sources".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Three 8th century Latin MSS containing the sermon ascribe it to Ephraem of the 4th century, one 9th century Latin MS ascribes it to Isadore of Seville of the 7th century, various Byzantine Greek MSS and Syriac MSS from the 10th century and later, if they ascribe it to anyone, usually ascribe it to Ephraem. No scholar has suggested a date later than the beginning of Islam in the mid-7th century.

    Any way one looks at it, it is a pretribulational statement that demonstrates the antiquity of the interpretation against the frequent charges that "no one thought of the pretribulational rapture before the 19th century" nonsense.

    Cheers, Bluefalcon

    Brother I thank you dearly for your speed in response to my requests, and I have no problem with what you have presented except for the response to secondly, that being;
    "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord" (Pseudo Ephraem, "On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, and the End of the World," Section 2).

    There is no scriptual evidence in the bible telling us that we will not go through tribulation, but there is evidence that we will not go through the wrath of God that goes for 1 hour in one day ( Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her).
    (Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off). The fact remains that the bride will not be married to the Lamb ( the resurrection ) until after the whore is judged ( Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up forever and ever.
    Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshiped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
    Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
    Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God ). I certainly do not want to go through this time of sorrow, but God does give Satan power to overcome the saints ( not the 144000 ) and kill them ( Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations). This is the time of the mark ( Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
    Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them ). The ones that will be left alive are the one's known as the jews, for they will run to their messiah, if it was not Isreal,and if it was the jews that are killed for not accepting the mark, then none of Isreal would be alive to be able to do what follows;
    Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened ). The rest of the world except Israel will receive the mark and their will not be a second chance because it is written; ( 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness ).

    ( Note; The word Tribulation, NOT WRATH )
    The saints being killed for not accepting the mark is not the wrath of God it is known as;
    Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    The Lord said He would keep them from it not take them out, the word for keep in Greek means;G5083 τηρέω tēreō tay-reh'-o
    From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon). The gaurding that God will do is over the saints souls, not their physical bodies at this time, the injury and loss will be the saints not denying Christ and losing their souls for it is written;(1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.) The hour of temptation is when all the world have to make a choice to either accept or reject the mark as the angel told them in Rev 14; the ones that will not accept it are the saints and Isreal, God allows the saints to be killed physically, tho they may not overcome in the flesh, they will overcome in the spirit by not denying their Lord and accepting the mark;(Rev13:7;14:12,13;20:20:4;6:9-11). The remant of Isreal will be protected in order for them to run to Jesus on the mount of Olivet. (Rev 12:6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    The remnant of her seed is the bride and this will happen when they are killed for not accepting the mark. ( Mathew Henry writes; and went to make war with the remnant of her seed; which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such

    who keep the commandments of God: and not the traditions of men: nor are the commands of the moral law of God so much designed, though it is true that these were kept by the seed of the church; but rather the ordinances of the Gospel, the commands of God our Saviour, such as baptism and the Lord's supper; which were kept by these faithful ones, as they had been delivered, when they began now to be sadly corrupted by the antichristian party:

    and have the testimony of Jesus Christ; the Gospel, which is a testimony concerning him; See Gill on Rev_1:2. This they had in their hearts, a spiritual knowledge and saving experience of it; and this they had in their hands, they made a profession of it, they held it forth, and held it fast; all which was the reason of Satan's enmity against them, and war with them ).
    Yours in Christ brother Graham Sly.
     
  10. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    The Scripture that I forgot to put in concerning Israel running to the Mount of Olivet is ;
    Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    Notice that the saints come with Christ when He comes to rescue Israel, "and all the saints with thee"( yes the rapture and the 2nd coming of the Lord ) are at the same time, first Christ in the twinkle of an eye raptures His bride, ( 1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
    Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
    Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
    Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
    yours in Christ brother Graham Sly

    and then in the same moment comes against those in the fight against the armies of the earth to rescue Israel. After this is the personal judgement seat of Christ with His saints and they will receive their rewards.
    yours in Christ brother Graham Sly
     
  11. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    ATTENTION BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST; This will be my final manifesto concerning the post-trib doctrine. I have in the past and present put up doctrinal PROOF concerning this doctrine that it does exist, and that the pretibulation is another gift wrapped deceiving heresy of Satan. I would just like to thank God for the brother who put this together what you are about to read;

    Yours in Christ, brother Graham Sly. PS. Thankyou brother Dave for your encouragement. I will contact you soon.


    FAMOUS RAPTURE WATCHERS !

    by Dave MacPherson

    (The following quotes----to which a couple more have been
    added----were first circulated in a non-copyrighted paper of mine
    &gt;&gt;in the 1970's. While noting how Rev. 3:10 has been interpreted by
    &gt;&gt;the greatest Greek experts----including the ones that Walvoord,
    &gt;&gt;Lindsey, LaHaye etc. regard as the greatest Greek
    &gt;&gt;authorities----can you determine the rapture view of each of these
    &gt;&gt;Christian leaders of the past?)
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; Barnabas (40-100): "The final stumbling-block (or source of
    &gt;&gt;danger) approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will
    &gt;&gt;profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also
    &gt;&gt;withstand coming sources of danger....That the Black One
    &gt;&gt;[Antichrist] may find no means of entrance..." (Epistle of
    &gt;&gt;Barnabas, 4).
    &gt;&gt; Clement of Rome (40-100): "...the Scripture also bears
    &gt;&gt;witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry'; and,
    &gt;&gt;'The Lord shall suddenly come [Matt. 24:30 coming] to His temple,
    &gt;&gt;even the Holy One, for whom ye look" (I Clement, 23).
    &gt;&gt; Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast,
    &gt;&gt;and are put through the fire [of the Great Tribulation that is yet
    &gt;&gt;to come], will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not
    &gt;&gt;speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor
    &gt;&gt;of Hermas, Vision 4).
    &gt;&gt; Polycarp (70-167): "He comes as the Judge of the living and
    &gt;&gt;the dead" (Epistle to the Philippians, II).
    &gt;&gt; Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy [Antichrist],
    &gt;&gt;who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to
    &gt;&gt;do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..."
    &gt;&gt;(Dialogue With Trypho, 110).
    &gt;&gt; Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the
    &gt;&gt;adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity
    &gt;&gt;among us [during the Great Tribulation] which is to be without
    &gt;&gt;restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8).
    &gt;&gt; Irenaeus (140-202): "And they [the ten kings who shall arise]
    &gt;&gt;shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give
    &gt;&gt;their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against
    &gt;&gt;Heresies, V, 26).
    &gt;&gt; Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to
    &gt;&gt;wait [Rev. 6]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet
    &gt;&gt;may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the
    &gt;&gt;Flesh, 25).
    &gt;&gt; Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and
    &gt;&gt;three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is
    &gt;&gt;to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city,
    &gt;&gt;and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains"
    &gt;&gt;(Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).
    &gt;&gt; Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang
    &gt;&gt;over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the
    &gt;&gt;Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for
    &gt;&gt;the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).
    &gt;&gt; Victorinus (240-303): "...the times of Antichrist, when all
    &gt;&gt;shall be injured" (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed
    &gt;&gt;John, VI, 5).
    &gt;&gt; Lactantius (240-330): "And power will be given him
    &gt;&gt;[Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty-two
    &gt;&gt;months....When these things shall so happen, then the righteous
    &gt;&gt;and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the
    &gt;&gt;wicked, and flee into solitudes" (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).
    &gt;&gt; Athanasius (293-373): "...they have not spared Thy servants,
    &gt;&gt;but are preparing the way for Antichrist" (History of the Arians,
    &gt;&gt;VIII, 79).
    &gt;&gt; Ephraem the Syrian (306-373): "Nothing remains then, except
    &gt;&gt;that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo
    &gt;&gt;Asceticus, I).
    &gt;&gt; Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): "...there is not other which
    &gt;&gt;remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]..." (On
    &gt;&gt;the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).
    &gt;&gt; Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): "The Church declares to thee
    &gt;&gt;the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well
    &gt;&gt;that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready
    &gt;&gt;beforehand" (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).
    &gt;&gt; Jerome (340-420): "I told you that Christ would not come
    &gt;&gt;unless Antichrist had come before" (Epistle 21).
    &gt;&gt; Chrysostom (345-407): "...the time of Antichrist...will be a
    &gt;&gt;sign of the coming of Christ..." (Homilies on First Thessalonians,
    &gt;&gt;9).
    &gt;&gt; Augustine (354-430): "But he who reads this passage [Dan.
    &gt;&gt;12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of
    &gt;&gt;Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the
    &gt;&gt;Church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).
    &gt;&gt; Venerable Bede (673-735): "[The Church's triumph will] follow
    &gt;&gt;the reign of Antichrist" (The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II,
    &gt;&gt;8).
    &gt;&gt; Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153): "There remains only one
    &gt;&gt;thing----that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear, to
    &gt;&gt;seduce those who remain still in Christ..." (Sermons on the Song
    &gt;&gt;of Songs, 33, 16).
    &gt;&gt; Roger Bacon (1214-1274): "...because of future perils [for
    &gt;&gt;the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p.
    &gt;&gt;634).
    &gt;&gt; John Wycliffe (1320-1384): "Wherefore let us pray to God that
    &gt;&gt;he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the
    &gt;&gt;world, Rev. iii" (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John
    &gt;&gt;Wickliff, D.D., p. 155).
    &gt;&gt; Martin Luther (1483-1546): "[The book of Revelation] is
    &gt;&gt;intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the
    &gt;&gt;future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the
    &gt;&gt;Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).
    &gt;&gt; William Tyndale (1492-1536): "...antichrist preacheth not
    &gt;&gt;Peter's doctrine (which is Christ's gospel)...he compelleth all
    &gt;&gt;men with violence of sword" (Greenslade's The Work of William
    &gt;&gt;Tindale, p. 127).
    &gt;&gt; Menno Simons (1496-1561): "...He will appear as a triumphant
    &gt;&gt;prince and a victorious king to bring judgment. Then will those
    &gt;&gt;who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings..., p. 622).
    &gt;&gt; John Calvin (1509-1564): "...we ought to follow in our
    &gt;&gt;inquiries after Antichrist, especially where such pride proceeds
    &gt;&gt;to a public desolation of the church" (Institutes, Vol. 2, p.
    &gt;&gt;411).
    &gt;&gt; John Knox (1515-1572): "...the great love of God towards his
    &gt;&gt;Church, whom he pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many
    &gt;&gt;years before they come to pass...to wit, The man of sin, The
    &gt;&gt;Antichrist, The Whore of Babylon" (The History of the
    &gt;&gt;Reformation..., I, p. 76).
    &gt;&gt; John Fox (1516-1587): "...that second beast prophesied to
    &gt;&gt;come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church
    &gt;&gt;of Christ..." (Acts and Monuments, I).
    &gt;&gt; Roger Williams (1603-1683): "Antichrist....hath his prisons,
    &gt;&gt;to keep Christ Jesus and his members fast..." (The Bloody Tenent,
    &gt;&gt;of Persecution, p. 153).
    &gt;&gt; John Bunyan (1628-1688): "He comes in flaming fire [as Judge]
    &gt;&gt;and...the trump of God sounds in the air, the dead to hear his
    &gt;&gt;voice..." (The Last Four Things: Of Judgment).
    &gt;&gt; Daniel Whitby (1638-1726): "...after the Fall of Antichrist,
    &gt;&gt;there shall be such a glorious State of the Church...so shall this
    &gt;&gt;be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the
    &gt;&gt;Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).
    &gt;&gt; Increase Mather (1639-1723): "That part of the world [Europe]
    &gt;&gt;was to be principally the Seat of the Church of Christ during the
    &gt;&gt;Reign of Antichrist" (Ichabod, p. 64).
    &gt;&gt; Matthew Henry (1662-1714): "Those who keep the gospel in a
    &gt;&gt;time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation
    &gt;&gt;[Rev. 3:10]" (Commentary, VI, p. 1134).
    &gt;&gt; Cotton Mather (1663-1728): "...that NewJerusalem, whereto the
    &gt;&gt;Church is to be advanced, when the Mystical Babylon shall be
    &gt;&gt;fallen" (The Wonders of the Invisible World, p. 3).
    &gt;&gt; Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758): "...continuance of Antichrist's
    &gt;&gt;reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the
    &gt;&gt;year of Christ 479..." (A History of the Work of Redemption, p.
    &gt;&gt;217).
    &gt;&gt; John Wesley (1703-1791): "'The stars shall...fall from
    &gt;&gt;heaven,' Revelation, vi. 13)....And then shall be heard the
    &gt;&gt;universal shout...followed by the 'voice of the archangel,'...'and
    &gt;&gt;the trump of God'...(I Thessalonians iv. 16)." (The Works of the
    &gt;&gt;Rev. John Wesley, A.M., Vol. V, p. 173).
    &gt;&gt; George Whitefield (1714-1770): "...'while the bridegroom
    &gt;&gt;tarried,' in the space of time which passeth between our Lord's
    &gt;&gt;ascension and his coming again to judgment..." (Gillies' Memoirs
    &gt;&gt;of Rev. George Whitefield, p. 471).
    &gt;&gt; David Brainerd (1718-1747): "...and I could not but hope,
    &gt;&gt;that the time was at hand, when Babylon the great would fall and
    &gt;&gt;rise no more" (Memoirs..., p. 326).
    &gt;&gt; Morgan Edwards (1722-1795): "[Antichrist] has hitherto
    &gt;&gt;assumed no higher title than 'the vicar general of Christ on
    &gt;&gt;earth'..." (Two Academical Exercises etc., p. 20).
    &gt;&gt; John Newton (1725-1807): "Fear not temptation's fiery day,
    &gt;&gt;for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it
    &gt;&gt;fast, the trying hour [Rev. 3:10] will soon be past" (The Works of
    &gt;&gt;the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).
    &gt;&gt; Adam Clarke (1762-1832): "We which are alive, and remain...he
    &gt;&gt;[Paul] is speaking of the genuine Christians which shall be found
    &gt;&gt;on earth when Christ comes to judgment" (Commentary, Vol. VI, p.
    &gt;&gt;550).
    &gt;&gt; Charles G. Finney (1792-1875): "Christ represents it as
    &gt;&gt;impossible to deceive the elect. Matt. 24:24. We have seen that
    &gt;&gt;the elect unto salvation includes all true christians." (Lectures
    &gt;&gt;on Systematic Theology, p. 606).
    &gt;&gt; Charles Hodge (1797-1878): "...the fate of his Church here on
    &gt;&gt;earth...is the burden of the Apocalypse" (Systematic Theology,
    &gt;&gt;Vol. III, p. 827).
    &gt;&gt; Albert Barnes (1798-1870): "...he will keep them in the
    &gt;&gt;future trials that shall come upon the world [Rev. 3:10]" (Notes
    &gt;&gt;on the New Testament, p. 94).
    &gt;&gt; George Mueller (1805-1898): "The Scripture declares plainly
    &gt;&gt;that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have
    &gt;&gt;taken place, and the man of sin...shall have been revealed..."
    &gt;&gt;(Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).
    &gt;&gt; Benjamin W. Newton (1805-1898): "The Secret Rapture was bad
    &gt;&gt;enough, but this [John Darby's novel idea that the book of Matthew
    &gt;&gt;is on 'Jewish' ground instead of 'Church' ground] was worse"
    &gt;&gt;(unpublished Fry MS. and F. Roy Coad's Prophetic Developments, p.
    &gt;&gt;29).
    &gt;&gt; R. C. Trench (1807-1886): "...the Philadelphian church...to
    &gt;&gt;be kept in temptation, not to be exempted from temptation..."
    &gt;&gt;(Seven Churches of Asia, pp. 183-4).
    &gt;&gt; Carl F. Keil (1807-1888): "...the persecution of the last
    &gt;&gt;enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical
    &gt;&gt;Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).
    &gt;&gt; Henry Alford (1810-1871): "Christ is on His way to this earth
    &gt;&gt;[I Thess. 4:17]..." (The New Testament for English Readers, Vol.
    &gt;&gt;II, p. 491).
    &gt;&gt; John Lillie (1812-1867): "In his [Antichrist's] days was to
    &gt;&gt;be the great----the last----tribulation of the Church" (Second
    &gt;&gt;Thessalonians, pp. 537-8).
    &gt;&gt; F. L. Godet (1812-1900): "The gathering of the elect [Matt.
    &gt;&gt;24:31]...is mentioned by St. Paul, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17, 2 Thess.
    &gt;&gt;2:1..." Commentary on Luke, p. 452).
    &gt;&gt; Robert Murray McCheyne (1813-1842): "Christians must have
    &gt;&gt;'great tribulation'; but they come out of it" (Bonar's Memoirs of
    &gt;&gt;McCheyne, p. 26).
    &gt;&gt; S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875): "The Scripture teaches the
    &gt;&gt;Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret theory
    &gt;&gt;bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation" (The
    &gt;&gt;Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).
    &gt;&gt; Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890): "...the approaching day is the
    &gt;&gt;day of Christ, who comes...for final judgment" (Commentary on
    &gt;&gt;Hebrews, Vol. II, p. 183).
    &gt;&gt; C. J. Ellicott (1819-1905): "[I Thess. 4:17] 'to meet the
    &gt;&gt;Lord,' as He is coming down to earth..." (Commentary on the
    &gt;&gt;Thessalonian Epistles, p. 66).
    &gt;&gt; Nathaniel West (1826-1906): "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built
    &gt;&gt;on a postulate, vicious in logic, violent in exegesis, contrary to
    &gt;&gt;experience, repudiated by the early Church, contradicted by the
    &gt;&gt;testimony of eighteen hundred years...and condemned by all the
    &gt;&gt;standard scholars of every age" (The Apostle Paul and the "Any
    &gt;&gt;Moment" Theory, p. 30).
    &gt;&gt; Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910): "He will keep us in the midst
    &gt;&gt;of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Rev. 3:10]" (The
    &gt;&gt;Epistles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).
    &gt;&gt; J. H. Thayer (1828-1901): "To keep [Rev. 3:10]:...by
    &gt;&gt;guarding, to cause one to escape in safety out of" (A
    &gt;&gt;Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 622).
    &gt;&gt; Adolph Saphir (1831-1891): "...the advent of the Messiah...to
    &gt;&gt;which both the believing synagogue and the church of the Lord
    &gt;&gt;Jesus Christ are looking..." (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Vol. I,
    &gt;&gt;p. 96).
    &gt;&gt; M. R. Vincent (1834-1922): "The preposition ['from'] implies,
    &gt;&gt;not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Rev.
    &gt;&gt;3:10]..." (Word Studies..., p. 466).
    &gt;&gt; William J. Erdman (1834-1923): "...by the 'saints' seen as
    &gt;&gt;future by Daniel and by John are meant 'the Church'..." (Notes on
    &gt;&gt;the Book of Revelation, p. 47).
    &gt;&gt; H. Grattan Guinness (1835-1910): "...the Church is on earth
    &gt;&gt;during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of
    &gt;&gt;the Age, p. 136).
    &gt;&gt; H. B. Swete (1835-1917): "The promise [of Rev. 3:10], as Bede
    &gt;&gt;says, is 'not indeed of your being immune from adversity, but of
    &gt;&gt;not being overcome by it" (The Apocalypse of St. John, p. 56).
    &gt;&gt; William G. Moorehead (1836-1914): "...the last days of the
    &gt;&gt;Church's deepest humiliation when Antichrist is practicing and
    &gt;&gt;prospering (Dan. viii:12)..." (Outline Studies in the New
    &gt;&gt;Testament, p. 123).
    &gt;&gt; A. H. Strong (1836-1921): "The final coming of Christ is
    &gt;&gt;referred to in: Mat. 24:30...[and] I Thess. 4:16..." (Systematic
    &gt;&gt;Theology, p. 567).
    &gt;&gt; Theodor Zahn (1838-1933): "...He will preserve...at the time
    &gt;&gt;of the great temptation [Rev. 3:10]..." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p.
    &gt;&gt;305).
    &gt;&gt; I. T. Beckwith (1843-1936): "The Philadelphians...are
    &gt;&gt;promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great
    &gt;&gt;trial [Rev. 3:10], they shall not fall" (The Apocalypse of John,
    &gt;&gt;p. 484).
    &gt;&gt; Robert Cameron (1845-1922): "The Coming for, and the Coming
    &gt;&gt;with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest
    &gt;&gt;contradiction, viz., two Second Comings which is an absurdity"
    &gt;&gt;(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 16).
    &gt;&gt; B. B. Warfield (1851-1921): "...He shall come again to
    &gt;&gt;judgment...to close the dispensation of grace..." (Biblical
    &gt;&gt;Doctrines, p. 639).
    &gt;&gt; David Baron (1855-1926): "(Tit. ii. 13), for then the hope as
    &gt;&gt;regards the church, and Israel, and the world, will be fully
    &gt;&gt;realised" (Visions of Zechariah, p.323).
    &gt;&gt; Philip Mauro (1859-1952): "...'dispensational teaching' is
    &gt;&gt;modernistic in the strictest sense...it first came into existence
    &gt;&gt;within the memory of persons now living..." (The Gospel of the
    &gt;&gt;Kingdom, p. 8).
    &gt;&gt; A. T. Robertson (1863-1934): "In Rev. 3:10...we seem to have
    &gt;&gt;the picture of general temptation with the preservation of the
    &gt;&gt;saints" (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of
    &gt;&gt;Historical Research, p. 596).
    &gt;&gt; R. C. H. Lenski (1864-1936): "...it [Philadelphia] shall be
    &gt;&gt;kept untouched and unharmed by the impending dangers [Rev. 3:10]"
    &gt;&gt;(The Interpretation of St. John's Revelation, pp. 146-7).
    &gt;&gt; William E. Biederwolf (1867-1939): "Godet, like most
    &gt;&gt;pre-millennial expositors, makes no provision for any period
    &gt;&gt;between the Lord's coming for His saints and His coming with
    &gt;&gt;them..." (The Second Coming Bible, p. 385).
    &gt;&gt; Alexander Reese (1881-1969): "...we quite deliberately reject
    &gt;&gt;the dispensational theories, propounded first about 1830..." (The
    &gt;&gt;Approaching Advent of Christ, p. 293).
    &gt;&gt; Norman S. MacPherson (1899-1980): "...the view that the
    &gt;&gt;Church will not pass into or through the Great Tribulation is
    &gt;&gt;based largely upon arbitrary interpretations of obscure passages"
    &gt;&gt;(Triumph Through Tribulation, p. 5).
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; [Incidentally, I'm part of a long line of pioneering fundamentalists.
    &gt;&gt;My grandfather George, long-time director of the famous New York City Tent
    &gt;&gt;Evangel featuring many notable speakers including Moody, Torrey, and
    &gt;&gt;Scofield, was so Scottish he deleted the "a" in MacPherson and saved ink!
    &gt;&gt;But he used floods of ink in his books while exposing radical liberals
    &gt;&gt;like Fosdick. After my father Norman pulled his Baptist church (in New
    &gt;&gt;York State) out of the old Northern Baptist Convention because of its
    &gt;&gt;modernism, many other churches followed his example. In my own pioneering
    &gt;&gt;books which have unearthed many long-covered-up facts about the bizarre
    &gt;&gt;beginnings of the various rapture views, I use only the KJV.
    &gt;&gt; Some of my uncovered facts: (1) Pretrib rapture interpretation is
    &gt;&gt;strangely nonexistent in the OTHER writings of the scholars who produced
    &gt;&gt;the 1611 KJV, (2) For 30 years John Darby, who wasn't original on ANY
    &gt;&gt;crucial aspect of dispensationalism, based his pretrib rapture on Rev.
    &gt;&gt;12:5's "caught up"; but Edward Irving had been publicly using this verse
    &gt;&gt;for the same purpose for eight years before Darby finally adopted pretrib,
    &gt;&gt;(3) Almost half of the Scofield Bible's consulting editors were posttribs
    &gt;&gt;- and Scofield greatly valued them, (4) Only two - out of 90 - articles in
    &gt;&gt;the famous volumes "The Fundamentals" (1917) focused on the second coming;
    &gt;&gt;neither article had even a hint of pretrib, (5) Today's fundies are moving
    &gt;&gt;back to the more tolerant position of earlier fundies who didn't view any
    &gt;&gt;of the various rapture views as "essentials." Bob Jones Sr. regarded Dr.
    &gt;&gt;Charles Brokenshire, a posttrib, as his most valuable BJU prof. And
    &gt;&gt;McIntire and other leaders have highly regarded and had fellowship with T.
    &gt;&gt;T. Shields and Ian Paisley, two more posttribs. Even though Jeffrey, Ice
    &gt;&gt;etc. have claimed that several pre-1830 individuals taught a crude form of
    &gt;&gt;pretrib, absolutely NO ONE has ever found any Bible-believing GROUP before
    &gt;&gt;1830 who taught the pretrib rapture!
    &gt;&gt; If you would like to get my 300-page book "The Rapture Plot"----
    &gt;&gt;which, with comparison quotes, exposes the incredible plagiarism in
    &gt;&gt;some of the writings of Van Impe, Falwell, LaHaye, Ryrie, etc., and
    &gt;&gt;which has by far the most extensive documentation on the origins
    &gt;&gt;and development of the various rapture views----call 800-643-4645.
    &gt;&gt;(All of my royalties have always gone to a nonprofit corporation which has
    &gt;&gt;never paid salary to anyone.) To see the reactions of
    &gt;&gt;leading Christian scholars to my writings, go to search engines and
    &gt;&gt;type in "Scholars Weigh My Research."]
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I hate sin, OldRegular, and other posttribbers, we have to be careful what we saying to pretribbers with our attitude. I hate sin, I understand you are trying to show the truth to pretribbers with verses and facts of the church history on their beliefs. But, you seem blunt on them.

    Please careful what you saying. Please respect pretribbers what they believe, both of us are brothers and sisters in Christ. The most important thing that we both agree Jesus is coming again. When, we don't know. We ought always be watch and be ready all the times no matter what happen to us, even, be prepeared for persecution in our lifetime too.

    Let's have peace each other love in Christ and unity.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    My dearest brother deafpost, I agree that we are to agree that Jesus is coming again, however, I can not but follow the blunt example of my Lord Jesus when His words speak so clear to me through His own mouth and by His apostles. If there is a teaching that is contrary to the bible this is what God tells us to do in love;
    1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
    1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
    1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
    1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
    Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
    1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
    1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
    2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
    2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
    2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
    1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
    1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
    1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
    1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
    1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

    I have only been standing against a doctrine that is false and not even biblically correct as you yourself know my dear brother in the Lord, and do stand against yourself. I can not respect this doctrine just as I can not respect the doctrine of Islam or Buddah or the Watchtower organization or the mormans etc, If something is not true then it is a lie, are we not to do as jude said;
    Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Contending for the faith is not just the Gospel of salvation, it is the traditions ( teachings ) handed down to us from the Lord and the Apostles and that includes every doctrinal instruction in the word of God including the post-trib doctrine, it is written;
    2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
    1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

    You see brother, Pauls teachings were taught everywhere in every church, it was not a matter of beleiving what you want as long as you just beleive in Christ, for it is written;
    Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    The fact is Paul told us to be followers of Him as he is of Christ. This is how Paul dealt with false teaching or immoral sin if after pleading with many tears, in much love towrds the beleivers in his time if they did not adhere to his warnings against their ungodly teachings or ways;
    1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
    1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed.
    1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Here Paul rebukes the Corinthians for not removing immorality out of the church, do you think that he is to blunt. In Pauls time there were two men who had caused the faith of some to be overthrown by saying that the resurrection is already past, their names are Hymenaeus and Philetus, they even managed to convince another fellow by the name of Alexander to join their filthy teaching about their theory on the resurrection, how do you think Paul dealt with that, I say bluntly, let us look;
    1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
    1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
    2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
    2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
    2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    Why do you think in love that Paul handed beleivers over to Satan? It was so they would learn not to blaspheme as he says with his own words in the above, remember brother to be careful "what you are saying" for it is written;
    1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
    1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

    I do not know about you my dear brother in the Lord whom I love, but I do not think it is ok according to scripture to allow someone who says that they beleive in Jesus, to teach others about their false resurrection doctrine, such as the Pre-tribbers do. I can only say that these false teachers will overthrow the faith of some who embrace their canker worm theorys, when they who have beleived it, find themselves having to make a decision to either accept the mark or reject it. I wonder if many of the Pre-tribbers will be there to tell these poor unstable souls not to take the mark or to explain to them why they are there themselves. Concerning the resurrection there is only two, not three;
    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    And again;
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    I wonder if the pre-tribbers will tell them that if they miss the first resurrection then the second death does have power over them and that they will not reign with Christ a thousand years, why? Because then, that means that "THEY" are left behind to, because. And the only resurrection that is to follow is the resurection of the dead ( the ungodly ), because the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Why are these dead resurrected? To face the Great white throne of Judgement, for it is written;
    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    We know this to be the unsaved for it is written;
    Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

    The ungodly will not stand at the judgement seat of Christ for the saved, but at the Great white throne Judgement to be cast into the lake of fire.
    I personaly am not against the messenger, but I am against the message. I love my brothers enough to do what the commandment says to do;
    Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. And again;
    Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

    Did not the Lord Jesus say;
    Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    This is especially true of the Pre-trib doctrine, if it is wrong as you know it is deafpost- trib, then it is a lie, and Jesus tells us who lies are from;
    Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    I can agree and say amen to what our Lord says;
    Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    I do not sat this to you brother, but to those who inwardly are a Judas and a devil, but outwardly look and sound like Christians, for it is written;
    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
    Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
    In conclusion to this I would just like everyone who thinks that I am blunt, that; I have not said that what any one has put up is garbage, as webdog has said to me. I have not personaly condemned any one who uses great amounts of space to express their veiws as Brother Ed Edwards has with me, and I certainly have not taken personal shots as blue falcon has at many. It makes one wonder who is really shooting the messenger and not the message, does it not my brethren in the Lord. I wonder how many Pre-triberrs will, when the time comes if they are alive to accept the mark or reject it, do as the disciples who also were inward devils did, and that is;
    Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    Please my brothers do not accept this microchip that is offered in your hand or forehead, I love you brother ed and blue falcon and webdog, I forgive you for what you said to me personaly. I hope to see you brothers in Heaven with me holding your hands and praising God togeather in perfect christian unity in Christ our Lord who is coming again. Even so, come Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    Yours in Christ brother Graham Sly Australia.
     
  14. I hate sin

    I hate sin New Member

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    I would just like to say thankyou to the brothers who own this site and letting me use the great amuont of space that I have. I mean this in no sarcastic way. I am really thankful to you and so is the Lord. Thankyou for creating such a site as this. Brother Graham Sly
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Pretrib Nicene Creed: "He shall come again
    in glory to judge the living and the dead
    and His Kingdom shall have no end."

    Anti-pretrib Nicene Creed: "He shall come again
    ONCE AND ONLY ONCE in glory to judge the living
    and the dead ONCE AND ONLY ONCE
    and His ONCE AND ONLY ONE Kingdom shall have no end.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    I am 100% agree with this creed as what Early Fathers believed. This creed is not pretrib. This creed does not saying 3 1/3 years or 7 years OR 'rapture'. This creed tells us, so very clear that Christ shall come again at once to judge both saved and unsaved. Many posttribs and amills are 100% agree with Nicene Creed. We have no problem with it. This is the basic fundamental doctrine, that we all agree same.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I, Ed, hate sin. And it is a sin to tell untruths by
    elipisis (...) The following quotes slice apart the sayings of
    these folks. I shall assume they still represent the thoughts
    and ideas of the party quoted. I reserve the right to study
    the matter and report back if these quotes are distorted.

    In general before about 1830 their was no x-trib position.
    About 1830 the wording and Biblical rational for the
    pre-trib rapture theory was developed. As with any theory, some
    other folks started other theories. The word 'post-trib'does not
    appear in this list of quotes [​IMG] The post-trib wording and
    Biblican Rational wasn't invented until after 1920. So those who
    mock & doubt the pretribulation rapture hope are the new guys on
    the block, not the pretribs as the anti-pretribs would have you believe.

    Dave MacPherson: "Barnabas (40-100): "The final stumbling-block (or source of
    danger) approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will
    profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also
    withstand coming sources of danger....That the Black One
    [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance..." (Epistle of
    Barnabas, 4)."

    This cut isn't cleary pre-trib or post-trib.

    Dave MacPherson: "Clement of Rome (40-100): "...the Scripture also bears
    witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry'; and,
    'The Lord shall suddenly come [Matt. 24:30 coming] to His temple,
    even the Holy One, for whom ye look" (I Clement, 23)."

    IMHO the bracketed portion should be the pretirublation rapture [Matt
    24:31 coming]

    Dave MacPherson: "Hermas (40-140): "Those, therefore, who continue steadfast,
    and are put through the fire [of the Great Tribulation that is yet
    to come], will be purified by means of it....Wherefore cease not
    speaking these things into the ears of the saints..." (The Pastor
    of Hermas, Vision 4)."

    These brackets change the whole meaning of the quote.
    It isn't nice to change quotes :( Here fire could well mean
    the normal human tribulation or the tribulation of Christian
    martyrdom.

    Dave MacPherson: " Polycarp (70-167): "He comes as the Judge of the living and
    the dead" (Epistle to the Philippians, II).
    Justin Martyr (100-168): "The man of apostasy [Antichrist],
    who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to
    do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..."
    (Dialogue With Trypho, 110)."

    Maybe this is kind of post, but mid-trib and pre-wrath positions
    are also supported.

    Dave MacPherson: "Melito (100-170): "For with all his strength did the
    adversary assail us, even then giving a foretaste of his activity
    among us [during the Great Tribulation] which is to be without
    restraint..." (Discourse on the Resurrection, i, 8)."

    Without the bracketed portion, this speaks of our adversary, the devil,
    not our living-in-the-Tribulation-period adversay, the Anti-christ.

    Dave MacPherson: "Irenaeus (140-202): "And they [the ten kings who shall arise]
    shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give
    their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against
    Heresies, V, 26)."

    Again, there are two churches: The OT church and the NT church and
    in the tribulation they are SEPERATE: the NT church is in heaven
    and the OT-type church folk, the tribulation church types
    (AKA: Israeli Jews) are on earth.

    Dave MacPherson: "Tertullian (150-220): "The souls of the martyrs are taught to
    wait [Rev. 6]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet
    may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the
    Flesh, 25)."

    This seems more tuned toward full preterism than any partial pret. post-trib
    position. But the dots may not conncet.

    Dave MacPherson: " Hippolytus (160-240): "...the one thousand two hundred and
    three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is
    to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city,
    and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains"
    (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)."

    Hippolytus doesn't know about the two churches.

    Dave MacPherson: " Cyprian (200-258): "The day of affliction has begun to hang
    over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the
    Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for
    the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).

    Well, i'm not lead to finish this exercise. At least I
    edited the quotes so one can read them. I prove the pretribulation
    rapture/resurreciton from the Bible. Did any of these guys even
    have a whole Bible to study? I have several. The Antiochan type
    Bibles where nearly 1000 years away from 200AD, so these folks, if
    they had a complete Bible were not using the same Bibles we use
    in the KJV.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    DeafPosttrib: //1 Thess 5:9 of 'wrath', it does not
    saying that is so called, 'seven
    year of tribulation period.'//

    Actually the Bibles does say that. But 1 Thess 5:9 by itself
    does NOT say that. You have to remember what you read in
    the other parts of the book, building from the Bible concept
    upon concept, precept upon precept.

    DeafPosttrib: "My understanding of 1 Tess 5:9 is speak of delivering
    us from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ -- salvation.

    Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! It does mean
    exactly that. IT also means that we won't have to go through
    the pouring out of the wrath of God on unrepentant mankind
    in the tribulation period:

    Rev 15:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And one of the foure beasts gaue vnto the seuen Angels,
    seuen golden vials, full of the wrath of God,
    who liueth for euer and euer

    We are not going to be on the earth when the wrath of God
    is poured out during the Tribualtion Period.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 15 Mar 2005;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I am 100% agree with this creed as what Early Fathers believed. This creed is not pretrib. This creed does not saying 3 1/3 years or 7 years OR 'rapture'. This creed tells us, so very clear that Christ shall come again at once to judge both saved and unsaved. Many posttribs and amills are 100% agree with Nicene Creed. We have no problem with it. This is the basic fundamental doctrine, that we all agree same.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
    </font>[/QUOTE]The Nicene Creed is NOT anti-pretrib.
    Pretribs agree with what it says.

    It is like the Southern Baptist Fatith
    and Message (1963):

    "X. LAST THINGS
    God, in HIs own time and in His own way,
    will bring the world to its appropraite end."

    Yep, not pretrib, not anti-pretrib.
     
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