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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Really, if people would read this and try to
    figure out the message from God that I have for
    you it would probably go a long way toward
    answering most questions and inquiries and
    misunderstandings. Again, nobody has acknowledged
    on this board that i've ever said this.
    Yet i post it for the third time :confused:

    I am NOT trying to prove pretrib. I am only
    fulfilling the scripture:

    1Pe 3:15 (KJV1611 Edition):
    But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts,
    & be ready alwayes to giue an answere
    to euery man that asketh you a reason
    of the hope that is in you
    , with
    meekenesse and feare:

    I realize the the topic of this Topic
    (notice the difference with and witout
    the capital ;) ) is to PROVE pretrib.
    Well, i've been working on it for 53 years
    now and i know that you cannot prove pretrib
    to those who want to deny the pretrib
    rapture. I do note however, it is easier
    to be positive about the pretribulation rapture
    than it is to be popular about other theories
    of rapture/Tribulation period timing.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem with pretribbers. They think they have some additional revelation from God.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    That is the problem with Calvanists,
    they don't recognize the OTHERs who are
    also the elect of God :(
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Good Night.

    I know many people include myself do not deny pretrib rapture doctrine. Because we do not agree with people who teacing and interpreting Scripture on pretrib rapture doctrine. Pretrib rapture doctrine is a logically teaching and man-making doctrine. There is no clear proof of a verse on pretrib rapture find anywhere in the Bible.

    I know 1 Peter 3:15 well as what you said of it. This verse is a good example for challenge with any cult witnesses like Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc. This verse could be use partially for pretrib rapture doctrine debate and challenges.

    Remember, we are all humans, our understanding of Scriptures are limited.

    The basic thing that we all agree together that Jesus is coming again. When? We don't know, just be prepared, be watch and ready.

    Matthew chapter 24....

    When Jesus shew disciples the buildings of the temple, He told them, these will be destroyed, will not be a stone stand up remain left. They were shocked. And then, they asked Him, wanted to know what the signs of the end of the world and Christ's coming. Disciples never hear of split comings, because it was not yet existed doctrine in their time. Disciples just asked Christ, wanted to know the signs of His coming at the end of the world. Obivously, they were asked for his only one future coming at the end of the world. No one was asking for 3 1/2 years or 7 years of so called, 'Tribulation period' to Jesus Christ. Because of that doctrine was not yet existed during Christ's time. They were asking about the signs, end of the world, and Christ's coming.

    My understanding of Matthew chapter 24 telling us, that we are seeing the signs are happening anywhere right now since Early Church to today. Christ telling us the signs are increasing climax toward the end of the world as His coming draweth closer.

    'Posttrib' rapture is not find anywhere in the Bible. Neither 'pretrib' rapture is find in the Bible either. But, posttrib rapture found the most clearest verses or passage in the Bible is Matthew 24:29-31. This passage telling us, Christ shall coming again right after tribulation, to blow the trumpet, and the angels shall gathering us together.

    Ed knows it. Yet, he keeps on separated verse 31 from Matt. 24:29-30, that is against Hermenuetic Rules. No way that you can afford to separate verse 31 from verse 29-30, because there is sooooooo very clear picture with the contextually of the passage telling us, our gathering together shall be occur follow after the tribulation.

    You have to accept the clear teaching from Jesus Christ, what He actual saying of Matthew 24:29-31, you cannot resisting with Christ's own words of Matthew 24:29-31 in contextually.

    No way for you able to prove us in Matthew chapter 24 saying that Christ shall coming before tribulation, because Christ does not saying it anywhere in that context.

    Also, you have to accept the facts of the Church history already recorded that there were so countless of Christians were martyred, persecuted, killed throughout many centuries since Early Church to today, and many Christians are still persecuting everywhere in the world. Even, yet occur more to come in near future.

    There is no promise find in the BIble telling us that we shall escape from tribulation, because Christ tells that we must face tribulaitons throughout our life, because Christ already faced it and He overcometh them - John 16:33.

    The teaching of pretrib rapture doctrine is so very flaw and weak. I do not agree with that. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying it - Colossians 2:8.

    You have to accept what the Bible saying is so very clear about Christ's coming, believe what it saying, and follow it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.

    ---------------------------------------
    I'm still looking for where Jesus says these
    signs of the church age increase toward
    the end [​IMG]

    Notice the many AND, BUT and other joiners
    here. These are all translations of the
    Greek word 'KAI'. 'Kai' can be used to
    join two equal sets; relate two unequal sets;
    denote a subset of a set; but there is
    another use: as an outline. You know the Greek
    didn't have any punctuation and surely no
    'bullets' like Microsoft Word has. So IMHO
    the 'kai' is used as the outline. Above i
    show a suggested major outline by the questions
    asked. I know the questions were answered
    by Jesus in the order asked. This is not
    the same order as the time-wise order.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    "tribulations" in nKJV:

    1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
    But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

    3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
    strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

    The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
    must be the most likly:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
    except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
    And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

    Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
    But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
    Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

    Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
    so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
    partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


    "tribulation" in nKJV:

    1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
    And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

    1. tribulation due to the human condition&gt;
    surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
    or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

    Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
    yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    Most likely:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
    Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    Got to be:
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
    For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


    Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power and glory to
    defeat the Antichrist.

    Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
    and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

    Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

    Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
    For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

    This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
    refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

    Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
    "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

    MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

    Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
    These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

    One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

    Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
    tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
    And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

    Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

    Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
    Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    Could be any of the first three

    Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
    rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

    Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

    2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
    who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

    Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
    Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

    1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
    For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

    Paul suffered from the three conditions:
    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



    2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
    since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

    Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
    to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Re 1:9 (nKJV):
    I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

    Re 2:9 (nKJV):
    I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Could be any of the first three:
    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


    Re 2:10 (nKJV):
    Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Likely: Could be any of the first three:
    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

    Re 2:22 (nKJV):
    Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

    Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

    Re 7:14 (nKJV):
    And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
    These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
    of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I thought that the so-called pretrib rapture was supposed to be secret but Ed tells us that this so-called pretrib rapture is described in Matthew 24:31. Yet look at what the passage states in context:

    Matthew 24:29-31
    29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    Notice that Ed's so-called pretrib rapture occurs after the tribulation of those days and after people see the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Talk about convoluting Scripture. The so-called secret pretrib rapture occurs after the tribulation of those days and while they see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    But then that is what pre tribbers must do, twist and twist Scripture until they squeeze out the answer they want. That is what Scofield called rightly "splintering", sorry, rightly dividing the word of truth. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...kinda like the pot calling the kettle black...
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I'm curious...why do so many calvinsts deny pre trib rapture? What part goes against their doctrine? I notice that most do not agree with pre trib. Any insight?
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You make my point aboyt the pretribers twisting. Nowhere on this Forum have I stated that I am a Calvinist. I have stated that I believe in the Sovereign Grace of God in the Salvation of His Elect. Anything wrong with that?

    As far as the pretrib rapture it is an unbiblical invention of that period in Church History, the late 18th and 19th centuries, when most modern day heresies were developed [Mormons, Jehovah's Witrnesses, Christian Science, etc..]
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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  12. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Faith:
    Baptist
    Two words: Covenant Theology
     
  13. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    Bro. Edwards blew it when he used Noah as a proof of the pretrib Rapture. Scofield, the one who popularized the pretrib Rapture, pointed to Noah as a type of Israel who are to be spared through the tribulation. He used Enoch as a type of the church who will be raptured so as to escape the tribulation. So if Noah is supposed to represent the Church, then it's a posttrib Rapture.
    Both are taking the example of Noah far beyond the original intent. The point Jesus made in using Noah is explicitly stated. The wicked were not prepared for Christ's return. Nothing more than that. Noah doesn't prove a pretrib, midtrib posttrib, prewrath or any other kind of Rapture.
     
  14. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    Bro. Edwards' citation of uses of "tribulation," does nothing to argue for a pretrib Rapture. If anything, it argues against it.
     
  15. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    The Rapture could be pretrib. But the texts used to prove it just aren't compelling to me.
    The pretrib Rapture involves adding a whole other layer to the events. You have to have two Second Comings. You have to have some go up at one point and others go up at other times. You have to have two programs going on, one for the church and one for Israel. So when is the resurrection of the just? For those who get saved during the Tribulation, it already happened. I guess they either get Raptured right when they get saved or get Raptured at the end (hmmm sounds like posttrib Rapture). You have to have different kinds of tribulation: "tribulation" and "Tribulation." They can't kill you any more than dead.
    Rather, a posttrib Rapture is far more simple. Just on the basis of Occam's Razor, the pretrib Rapture bears the burden of proof.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    David Ekstrom: "So when is the resurrection of the just?
    For those who get saved during the Tribulation, it already happened. I guess they either get Raptured right when they get saved or get Raptured at the end (hmmm sounds like posttrib Rapture)."

    Jews who get saved during the Tribulation will be protected
    by the very hand of God from the ravages of the Tribulation
    period. Gentiles will, when they first confess Jesus as
    their LOrd and He becomes their Savior -- they will be immediately
    martyred. (there will be no need to rapture them, they
    will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation period). Yes,
    there is a rapture right before the beginning of the Tribulation
    period and there will be a resurrection right before the
    Rapture. There will be a second, less populated resurrection
    at the end of the Tribulation period.

    BTW, the 4th century (301-310 in this case) called the ones
    who died in martyrdom (giving witness to their faith in Jesus,
    instead of water Baptism) upon atheir first confession that
    Jesus is their Lord -- they were called 'stillborn Christians' -
    for they did as soon as they were born-again.

    The concept of the 'Stillborn Saint" comes from the ECF
    (early church father); Eusebius and is NOT in the
    Bible. The idea that the saved Gentiles in the Tribulation
    will be martyred is from Revelation 13:15. The idea that
    the Jewish believer in Messiah Jesus will be protected
    in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    There will be one general resurrection and judgment of all the dead as taught in John 5: 28, 29

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    This is consistent with the historic doctrine of the Baptist Churches, including the Southern Baptist Churches.

    When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

    XIX. The Resurrection
    The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

    XX. The Judgment
    God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

    This Abstract of Principles is still in force at the Southern Seminary.

    The Second London Confession [1677]

    Chapter XXXI. Of the State of Man after Death and of the Resurrection of the Dead [page 293, Baptist Confessions of Faith by Lumpkin]

    “1. The Bodies of Men after Death return to dust and see corruption; but their souls [which neither die nor sleep] having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them; the Souls of the righteous then being made perfect in holiness, are received into Paradise where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory; waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked, are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places for Souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

    2. At the last day such of the Saints as are found alive shall not sleep but shall be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be reunited with their Souls again forever.

    3. The bodies of the unjust shall by the power of Christ be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just by His Spirit unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.”

    Chapter XXXII. Of the Last Judgment [page 294]

    “1. God hath appointed a Day wherein He will judge the world in Righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to Whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which Day not only the Apostate Angels shall be judged; but likewise all persons that have lived upon the Earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ; to give an account of their thoughts, Words, and Deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.

    2. The end of Gods appointing this Day is for the manifestation of the glory of His Mercy, in the Eternal Salvation of the Elect, and of His Justice in the Eternal damnation of the Reprobate who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the Righteous go into everlasting life, and receive the fullness of Joy, and Glory, with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into Eternal torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.

    3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a Day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin and for greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity; so will he have that day unknown to Men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour, the Lord will come; and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, Come quickly, Amen.”


    The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

    Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367, Lumpkin]

    “We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”

    Southern Baptist Convention [1925 and 1963]

    Article X. Last Things [page 397, Lumpkin]

    “God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will dwell forever in heaven with the Lord.”
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858,

    // XIX. The Resurrection
    The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.//

    // XX. The Judgment
    God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.//

    My GUIDE is the Bible:

    Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them: & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead liued not againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    So the Southern Baptist "At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised."
    Must mean that the "last day" is at least 1,000 years long.

    and this:
    "God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life."
    must mean:
    God hath appointed a tilme, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

    You will note i teach the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    from the Bible, not from the sayings of good christians
    from times past. The Bible is always right, the sayings of
    groups of Christians, even Baptist Christians, must be tailerid
    to FIT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ed Ed

    You are deluding yourself if you think you teach the pretrib rapture/resurrection from the Bible. Scripture teaches clearly in the words of Jesus Christ that there will be one general resurrection and judgment of all the dead.

    John 5: 28, 29

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    This is consistent with the historic doctrine of the Baptist Churches, including the Southern Baptist Churches. You can shuffle your feet as much as you choose and dance around the Scofield/Darbyite error but you are still deluded. And neither Scofield nor Darby were good Baptists.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Scripture teaches clearly in the words of Jesus Christ that there will be one general resurrection and judgment of all the dead.

    John 5: 28, 29

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    I believe you could drive a Mac Truck thru the holes
    in understanding you have here.
    This passage is not Clear in saying "one and only
    one" final resurrurrecion. In fact, it mentions
    two resurrections (but does not limit God to having
    one and only one resurrection):

    1. resurrection of life
    2. resurrection of damnation

    John 5:28-29 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming
    when all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 and come out--those who have done good things,
    to the resurrection of life, but those
    who have done wicked things, to the resurrection
    of judgment.

    So the one and only one resurrection is not limited
    to one and only one 60-minute hour. "Hour' here means
    time. In prophecy hour = the appropriate time,
    day = the appropriate time so 1 hour = 1 day, in
    God's economy.

    Your forcing one and only one resurrection all in
    the same literal/physical 60-minute hour contradicts
    half the Bible. You are going to have to figure out
    when to ONE and when to TWO and when to THREE.
    I don't have time to take you verse by verse through
    the Bible. But you should no ignore Revelation
    Chapter 20 nor kill it on a misreading of 2 Peter 3:10.
     
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