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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: "You can shuffle your feet as much as you choose and dance around the Scofield/Darbyite error but you are still deluded."

    Strange, Schofield and Darby keep coming up, brought
    into the converstaion by non-pre-tribs. I could care less
    about Schofield and Darby. I get my eschatology from
    the Bible, not from Schofield and Darby; not from
    misunderstanding the scripture.
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I believe, the reason why so many fundamental baptist churches teaching on pretrib rapture doctrine, and pretribulation doctrine is a very popular among Christians today.

    Because, many Christians love this doctrine make them feel comfort and itching ears. Many baptist pastors preaching on pretrib to the congregation or members, the purpose is, to drawing more people come to their church for growth and of course money.

    Debate on the rapture timing does not effect our salvation. Both pretribs and posttribs agree on the basic thing, that we believe Jesus is coming again. But the big question is when?

    I consider pretribulation doctrine causes some damages to Christians and people about their faith. Why? Because many Christians might saying, "I am not worry about tribulation, antichrist, 666. I am already saved at once, we will be rapture and will miss tribulation anyway." Pretrib doctrine influences many Christians' spiritual life drifting away, enjoying worldly life, no matter what happen tothem, they still think they are saved and will be rapture anyway.

    Secondly, looking at lifestyle and condition life in America today. I consider America is the world's coolest and wealthest nation.

    Notice other countries in the world, many Christians are suffering persecutions and tribulations today. Are we better than them?

    Late Corrie ten Boom warned, America will be the next country to face persecution. She's right. She already experinced tribulations and persecution, while she was in the concentration camp under Nazi during World War II. She realized, that her suffering make her faith grew stronger in the Lord.

    Look, there is no promise find anywhere in the Bible that we shall never face tribulation and persecution. Throughout in the Bible often showing us, that Christians faced tribulations and persecutions. The main reason why must Christians facing tribulations and persecutions, because Jesus Christ already face them, and He survived through them, and overcometh them through Calvary according John 16:33. I have preaching you on John 16:33 so many times. Why cannot you accept the facts in the Bible telling us that we must go through much tribulations?

    Often, pretribbers citied 1 Thess. 1:10; & 5:9 for 'proof' of pretrib doctrine.

    All posttribbers agree with 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9, have no problem with them. Posttribbers understand them differently as what pretribbers understand by interpreting.

    Pretribbers interprets 'wrath' means seven year of Tribulation period. Is that what the Bible actually saying according what they interpreting on 'wrath'? Silence.

    The only way that we can understand what 'wrath' stands for. Go look in John 3:36 explains on wrath, what it is talking about.

    John 3:36 telling us, anyone who do not believing on Jesus Christ, but the wrath of God abding on persn. Means, if any person reject Christ, the wrath of God send a person go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    Pretribbers use Noah and Lot as 'type' of pretrib doctrine.

    Posttribbers have no problem with Noah and Lot as what Christ said.

    Christ tells us, in the same day, when Noah enter into the Ark, then all unbelievers were swept away or destroyed by the flood, there was NO person survived after the flood. Same with Lot, in the same day, when Lot was fled out of Sodom. All people in Sodom was killed, there was NO person survived after the destruction of Sodom.

    Christ tells us, these give us the lesson what will be happen on Christ's day at His coming.

    When Christ once come as a thief. Thief is FOR all unbelievers only, not for believers. "Thief in the night", it shows that there is a final punishment judgment shall take all unbelievers away into everlasting punishment, and there will be NO another chance for a person to repent of sins AFTER Christ once come with His angels.

    Christ mentioned on Noah and Lot, both are clearly describe of second coming and the judgement day is posttrib doctrine.

    Premill pretrib doctrine teaches that there will be another chance for people to repent of their sins AFTER 'thief in the night' passed at the rapture(separated from second coming). But that doctrine is not biblical. Bible does not teaching on that doctrine.

    Matthew 25:1-13 is the probably clearest teaching warning about there is NO other chance for a person to repent of sin when ONCE after Christ comes. Also, this passage is the mostly clear picture of the second coming is posttrib.

    What about 144,000 evangelists of Revelation chapter 7 and 14?

    Pretrib doctrine teaching on 144,000 are represent of all Jewish male will be evnagelists preaching the gospel over the world, many will be saved during seven year of tribulation period according to Rev. 7:9-17.

    That doctrine is misinterpreting on Rev. 7:9-17, and probably that doctrine is the mostly misunderstanding among Christians.

    Rev. 7:1-8 telling us, these tribes of Israel with each 12,000, these are not literal exactly numbers of each tribes, but symbolic and figuragtively meaning.

    Rev. 14:3-4 describe more clear on the identify of 144,000, whose are they. Rev. 14:3-4 telling us, that they are redeemed from the world, and they are virgins. That mean, people who are spearated from the evil, and their life being keep pure and holy separate from the world system. Why it called them, 'virgin'? Revelation chapter 17 answer that question. God warns us that we must be separate from the evil world system, do not be compromising with them. Compromising with the world is the picture of commit adultery. That why Bible commands us that we ought be virgin for Jesus Christ.

    Rev. 7:9-17 show the clearly picture of 144,000 of verse 1 to 8 speak of multitude across the world shall be gathering together(rapture), to meet Christ at the throne.

    There is NO hint find anywhere in Revelation chapter 7 or 14 saying that there will be another chnace for a person to repent beyond Christ's coming.

    And finally, John 6:39,40,44, and 54 clearly telling us that the resurrection shall be on the [/B]LAST DAY[/B], not saying 7 years or 3 1/2 years either.

    Even, a Second Grade student would understand that there will be the last day of school -tomorrow. That means a student being exciting, know there will be NO class again after the last day passed for the summer!! Very simple!

    John 5:27-29 teaching us very clear there shall be the only ONE Judgement DAY!!! Not two or three judgement days in the future.

    You have to accept what Bible actual saying, believe and follow it. Be strong like as soldier of Christ, because Christ suffered for us, so, therefore follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Ed,

    Ok, why not let have a bet on money like $1000 dollar, to see which one of you or me is right on the Bible.

    You think the Bible is not clearly teaching on the only one resurrection or judgement day.

    Ed, please challenge us, find the clearest passage in any verses in the Bible teaching us there shall be series of resurrection, or judgement day.

    Ed, tell me, does Matthew 25:31-46 teaching there shall be two or three different judgement days beyond Christ's coming?

    Your argue with us on your belief of pretrib rapture doctrine by trying to prove us from the Bible is a endless debate. Because, pretrib doctrine is so very flaw and weak, have no support find anywhere in the Bible.

    You might saying to me, that I am blind. Well, myself ex-pretribber before. I thought pretrib rapture doctrine is a truth. Till I opened my eyes see the truths from the Bible, it caused my beliefs changed from pretrib to posttrib, because I already determined follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossinas 2:8.

    You saying that you have been pretribber for 54 years, that pretty so long time! Nothing wrong with your beliefs and your decision.

    I cannot force you to change your beliefs. Only God's Word can.

    Which one you prefer to follow - God's Word or men's teaching?

    I already determine to follow God's Word over men's teaching.

    My job is not convicting or win debate over you on rapture timing. My job is to showing the truths from the Bible to you because I care of your soul.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Well you may not care about Scofield and Darby but Darby is the grandaddy of the pretrib rapture error and Scofield was his most apt pupil. There are various stories about where Darby got his ideas but they certainly did not come from the Bible, neither did yours.

    An hour is an hour, the hour is the hour, a time is a time. All are singular.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Tee hee [​IMG]

    Reminds me of a joke.

    This is your captian, I've got some good news
    and I've got some bad news. The good news
    is that we have a jet
    stream of 124 Miles Per Hour at our tail
    so we are making the best ground speed i've
    ever seen. The bad news is that the
    Navigator has no idea where we are :confused:


    1Co 3:13 (KJV1611):
    Euery mans worke shall be made manifest.
    For the day shall declare it, because
    it shall bee reuealed by fire, and the fire shall
    trie euery mans worke of what sort it is.

    Joh 5:28-29 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Marueile not at this: for the houre is comming,
    in the which all that are in the graues shall
    heare his voice,
    29 And shall come foorth, they that haue
    done good, vnto the resurrection of life,
    and they that haue done euill, vnto the resurrection of damnation.

    These two passages both speak of resurrection for
    the purpose of final judgement. One says 'hour'
    one says 'day'.

    How do you reconcile these sayings. Are not they both
    the inerrant written word of God?
    The reconcilation must be in the understanding:
    'hour' means the appropriate time
    'day' means the appropriate time.
    God always works at the appropriate time.
    God is eternal and the creator of time; God isn't bound
    to the earthly 60-minute hour nor
    is God bound to the earthly 48-hour day.
    God will bring Judgement against ever human being that
    ever lived. Of that we can be sure. Even if God has
    to raise people from the dead so they can be judged
    God will do it.

    God is eternal. Even in the time
    which God created, God sees things from His
    Eternal viewpoint. In God's economy the
    blind see, Bro DeafPosttrib is a hearing person,
    the lame leap like deer. In God's economy the
    week is seven years long. In God's economy the
    1,000 years is but a day. In God's economy
    1 hour = 1 day. Get used to God's economy, you are
    a saved person and you will live in God's economy
    forever.
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    If God is eternal and I believe He is then the rest of your diatribe is meaningless. In God's economy, eternity, there is no time.
    :D :D :D
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    1Sa 8:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the Lord said vnto Samuel, Hearken vnto the voyce of the people in all that they say vnto thee: for they haue not reiected thee, but they haue reiected mee, that I should not reigne ouer them.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    1Sa 8:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the Lord said vnto Samuel, Hearken vnto the voyce of the people in all that they say vnto thee: for they haue not reiected thee, but they haue reiected mee, that I should not reigne ouer them.
    </font>[/QUOTE]What you have shown in the previous post is that you pre tribbers base your false doctrine on the false intrepretation of one passage of Scripture, that concerning Daniel's so called 70th week.

    Am I to assume that you are claiming to be a prophet of God in your quote of 1 Samuel 8:7? Shame on you Ed Ed. Don't you know the Revelation of God was closed ~2000 years ago? That is the reason that dispensationalism, like the heresies of the 19th century [Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, etc.] is false. They also claim new revelation.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  10. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    The "books" were sealed up until prophetical end times when knowledge would increase and chariots would be jostling in the streets, people running to and fro.

    Besides, Paul is the one who mentioned about the Church being snatched away & he was around a long time before Darby & Scofield.

    Mainstream Baptists believe in the Rapture of the Church. I get tired of seeing these "other views" which don't align with Scripture posted in these forums.

    Don't worry, Brother Ed, we don't have to prove anything cause the trumpet is going to sound any day now. [​IMG]

    Maranatha.

    Another pre-Darby:
    http://www.raptureready.com/featured/tt3.html
     
  11. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Here's a question for post-trib's:

    Consider these verses,

    Daniel 12:9-13[KJV]
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


    We know how many days the last part of the Tribulation will be from verse 11: 1290 days
    We know the last event of the Tribulation is the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21).

    Thus, based upon when the Anti-Christ sits on the throne and declares himself god, we would know exactly to the day when Christ would return.

    If no one knows the "day nor the hour" (Matthew 24:42, 25:13) of the return of Christ, doesn't this disprove a post-trib rapture?
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Exactly. If we were to go through the tribulation, we would know to the day when Christ would return.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    When I was a small boy I saw some horse drawn wagons but still haven't seen any chariots "jostling in the streets".

    Paul never talks about the Church being snatched away. You have been listening to pretribbers misuse the "Greek".

    Sadly some so-called mainstream Baptists have departed from the faith being seduced by such as Darby and Scofield. Perhaps this is a fulfilment of the following Scripture:

    Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    1 John 2:26* These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.


    Then quit reading that pretrib trash, perhaps it will go away. There is always hope.

    Now which trumpet would that be? There are always some Saints who hear the trumpet call.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Sista' Lady Eagle -- Tell it like it is! [​IMG]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: "Now which trumpet would that be?:

    The last trumpet of the Gentile Age, Church Age,
    Age of grace, whatever you want to call the age
    (in KJV 'world') we are in now that ends at
    the pretriublation rapture/resurrection).
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    So when Scripture talks about the last trumpet it really doesn't mean the last trumpet just like the hour doesn't mean the hour [such as in John 5:28]. Scripture means whatever Darby, Scofield and like minded pretribbers say.
     
  17. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Right on, OR.

    Pre-trib rapture simply cannot be proved from the Scriptures without Darby and Scofield reimagining the words of Jesus in Matthew 24.

    Once you "rightly divide" the Word of God, you can make it say whatever you want it to say, and this under the guise of "sound" exegesis.

    I would laugh if it weren't so sad.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    They really splinter the Word of God!
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So if it's so sad, where is your hope for Christ's return that we are supposed to have in 1 Thess. ?
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Num 29:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And in the seuenth moneth, on the first day of the moneth, ye
    shall haue an holy conuocation, yee shall doe no seruile worke:
    it is a day of blowing the trumpets vnto you.

    Every year for 1,000 years at the Temple this celebration
    took place, each year a LAST TRuMPET is blown.

    For the last 2,000 years this holiday has been celebrated
    in the many synagogues around the world. If there has
    been an average of only 1,000 synagogues during all this
    time that would be two million LAST TRUMPETs blown.

    I hear from Messianic Jews that the Feast of Trumpets
    has three trumpets (AKA: shofar) are blown:

    1. the first trumpet
    2. the last trumpet
    3. the GREAT SHOFAR

    So what do you think 'last' means?
    Look at lists of trumpet blowing:

    LIST ONE: (See above with 3 elements)

    LIST TWO with two elements:
    1. the first trumpets:
    1A. the first trumpet
    1B. the last trumpet
    2. the GREAT SHOFAR

    List THREE with two elements:
    1. the first trumpet
    2. the last trumpets:
    1A. the last trumpet
    1B. the GREAT SHOFAR

    List FOUR with one element:
    1A. the first trumpet
    1B. the last trumpet
    1C. the GREAT SHOFAR

    Such lists vary in number of elements but all speak
    of the same time situation.

    Ed short list of Comings of Jesus:

    1. First Comings:
    1A. as a babe in bethlehem
    (Dec 01BC)
    1B. as a victor over Hell unto Resurrection
    (March 33AD)

    2. Second Comings:
    2A. Rapture of the Gentile Age Saints
    (beginning of the Triublation/70th Week of Daniel/Wrath)
    2B. Defeat of the Antichrist and set-up of the Millennial Kingdom
    (end of the Triublation/70th Week of Daniel/Wrath)

    OR some would list it this way:

    1. Jesus appears to His own:
    1A. as a babe in bethlehem
    (Dec 01BC)
    1B. Rapture of the Gentile Age Saints
    (beginning of the Triublation/70th Week of Daniel/Wrath)

    2. Jesus appears a Victor:
    2A. as a victor over Hell unto Resurrection
    (March 33AD)
    2B. Defeat of the Antichrist and set-up of the Millennial Kingdom
    (end of the Triublation/70th Week of Daniel/Wrath)
     
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