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Prove the Pre-trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by StefanM, Aug 3, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Webdog -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Amen, Brother Webdog -- Preach it! [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]My hope is in:

    1. the return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory with His Bride, the New Jerusalem;
    2. the resurrection of all the dead;
    3. the union of the resurrected bodies of the Saints with those souls whom return with Jesus Christ;
    4. the glorification of the living Saints;
    5. the Great White Throne Judgment, when Jesus Christ will separate His Sheep from Satans goats and then cast Satan and his goats into the lake of fire;
    6. the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth;
    7. and eternity spent in the presence of the Triune God.

    It can't get any better than that.

    In fact I will give myself an AMEN brother, preach it! [​IMG]
     
  3. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom New Member

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    I'm bailing out on this thread. Once again, we have degenerated to attacks on one another. The Rapture question is basically academic. You hold the position you do because you love Jesus and believe the Bible teaches it. No one here is denying the Blessed Hope.
    Remember Our Lord's first coming? Despite all the prophecies, the actual event didn't turn out as people thought it would.
    I'm convinced that the prophecies of Our Lord's return are not given so that we can know the events of the future. The promise is given so that we will serve the Lord and purge ourselves from worldliness. Yet, what is this name-calling and divisiveness, if not worldliness?
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Interesting,

    About 4 years ago, I read a maginaze on prophecy, it is pretrib. That article was written by Tim LaHaye. He wrote that article about the comparison of John 14:1-3 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17. He shew the chart of John 14:1-3 compare with 1 Thess. 4:15-17:

    trouble v.1
    sorrow v. 13

    believe v.1
    believe v.14

    God, me v.1
    Jesus, God v. 14

    told you v.2
    say to you v. 15

    come again v.3
    coming of the Lord v.15

    receive you v.3
    caught up v. 17

    to myself v.3
    to meet the Lord v. 17

    be where I am v. 3
    ever be with the Lord v. 17

    I am 100% agree with Tim LaHaye of his chart on the comparing of John 14:1-3 with 1 Thess. 4:13-17. He is right, because of what Lord Jesus Christ saying in His own Word.

    Interesting, five years ago, I did made a chart on the comparing of Matthew 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17. That was one year before I read that maginaze on that article, which Tim LaHaye made a chart.

    Somehow, I cannot remember where I put that maginaze, but I think, I remember the name of maginaze -"Israel, My Glory".

    But, later in year 2001, I brought a book -"Charting The End Times" by Tim LaHaye, coauthor with Thomas Ice. I found that article, which Tim LaHaye made the chart on comparing of John 14:1-3 with 1 Thess. 4:13-17 in the page 113-114.

    I would like to show you the chart on the comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17:

    coming v. 30
    coming v. 15

    clouds v. 30
    clouds v. 17

    heaven v. 30
    heaven v. 16

    sound v. 31
    voice v. 16

    trumpet v. 31
    trump v. 16

    together v. 31
    together v. 17

    elect v. 31
    in Christ v. 16

    winds v. 31
    air v. 17

    angels v. 30
    archangel v. 16(clear in 2 Thess 1:7)

    I did sent email to Dr. Thomas Ice of my chart on the comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17. Guess what he replied me only once, refused to willing to discuss or debate with me. He just threw out other link of Matt. 24:30-31 to me.

    Many pretribbers should be aware that the comparing of Matt. 24:30-31 with 1 Thess. 4:15-17 both are fit perfectly, because of what Jesus Christ said in His word, not Paul's according 1 Thess 4:15- "For this we say unto you BY the Word of the LORD". Yet, many pretribbers deny Matthew 24:31 speaking so clearly about rapture at Christ's coming.

    Only one pretribber at baptistboard agrees on Matt. 24:31 is Ed Edwards.

    Ed, you admitted Matt. 24:31 is clearly speak of rapture. But, yet, you saying verse 31 is speak of 'pretrib rapture'. How do you know that Matt. 24:31 is speak of 'pretrib rapture'? No way you can prove this verse to us, it is 'pretrib'. Because Christ doesn't saying it.

    Most pretribbers are aware of the context of Matt. 24:29-31 talking about the gathering will be occur right after tribulation. However, they labeled it, 'second coming' rather than 'rapture'.

    Actually, there is the only ONE future coming of Christ, not split or partial rapture find in the Bible.

    Rapture always include at second comign same time.

    Pretrib going their own guessworks tooooo much!

    I don't doing my own guesswork. I understand very clear what the Bible actual saying. I follow what it saying.

    By the way, 2,300 days- I believe Daniel 8:14 speaks of Jesus Christ's sacrifice to halt daily sacrifices and He fulfilled it, and He actuals destroyed it(Dan. 9:27). Same with Dan. 12:11-12 speak of the first step of 1290 days - Christ puts daily scarifices to end by Calvary, then the second step of 1335 days- Christians shall received the Holy Spirit on Pentacost Day. Actually, Daniel 12:11-12 already fulfilled through Calvary and Pentacost Day. Even with Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled also.

    By the way, we all agree that, NO ONE on earth knows what day and hour when Christ comes, only God, the Father knows. Then, please stop accusing on us(posttribbers) by counting either 1260 days, or 1290 days, or 1335 days, or 2300 days, or 'time, times, and dividing a time', or 42 months, etc.

    Ed, how can you prove to us, that Dan. 9:24-27 is speak of seven years of "tribulation period"? No way, that you can prove us find anywhere in the Bible saying tribulation is "seven years long". That is pretrib's guesswork.

    Early Church believed our gathering together shall be at Christ's coming at the end of the world. None of them were teaching so called, 'pretribulation doctrine'. Because it was not yet exist in the first of 19 Centuries. Even, none of them were teaching on split comings, till Darby developed it, and now many churches adopted Darby's teaching. Why?

    I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

    Cannot you accept what God's Word saying about Christ's coming, and follow it?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother OldRegular -- Preach it!

    "It can't get any better than that."
    This is correct, for you posties.
    We pretribs get all that AND IN ADDITION:
    hope for the
    present even when in tribulation.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Amen, Brother Webdog -- Preach it! [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]My hope is in:

    1. the return of Jesus Christ in power and great glory with His Bride, the New Jerusalem;
    2. the resurrection of all the dead;
    3. the union of the resurrected bodies of the Saints with those souls whom return with Jesus Christ;
    4. the glorification of the living Saints;
    5. the Great White Throne Judgment, when Jesus Christ will separate His Sheep from Satans goats and then cast Satan and his goats into the lake of fire;
    6. the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth;
    7. and eternity spent in the presence of the Triune God.

    It can't get any better than that.

    In fact I will give myself an AMEN brother, preach it! [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]So, in order for this to happen, you must anxiously be awaiting the revealing of the antichrist (or antichrists) and the great tribulation? How are we to "encourage each other with these words"? If I thought I were to be in ANY part of the tribulation, I would NOT be encouraged! If the next thing we are to look for is the coming of Jesus, we are not going to be here for the revealing of the "lawless one".
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Is your faith that weak?

    Our Lord Jesus Christ told us in John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
     
  8. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    OR,

    I agree that Matthew records the words of Jesus regarding a general resurrection.

    The word "hour" doesn't necessarily mean sixty minutes. I believe we could translate the phrase, "there is coming a time when . . . "

    But my real point is this. This same Jesus revealed to the Apostle John that the resurrection of the dead will occur in two phases: the first resurrection (which we want to be a part of) and the second resurrection (which takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ).

    Is it not possible that Jesus gave John more and deeper insight into the general resurrection? This would not be inconsistent with progressive revelation.

    In any event, our pre-trib friends are hard pressed to come up with a single verse or "text" of Scripture to support a pre-trib rapture. It simply isn't in the Bible.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    OR, my faith is not weak. What does the verse you quote have to do with THE tribulation? I understand the difference between tribulations and THE tribulation. I have been through tribulations. The Bible says THE tribulation will be unlike any the world has ever seen. You have it that bad? I have a beautiful wife, a new child on the way, a roof over my head and food on the table. You honestly think we are going through THE tribulation? The Bible tells us to comfort each other concerning us escaping THE tribulation.
     
  10. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Escaping tribulation in the midst of tribulation.

    Flee to the mountains!
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Did I say that we were going through the tribulation. No! So don't accuse me of something I did not say. Not nice at all! :D

    I ask you: can anything be worse than what the early Christians endured at the hands of the Roman Empire, being eaten alive by wild animals, dipped in tar and used as candles to light the scene for Roman festivals?
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word hora and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:

    1. a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
    1a. of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
    2. the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
    3. a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
    4. any definite time, point of time, moment

    Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word ‘hora’ obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:

    Matthew 26:40, KJV
    40. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

    Matthew 27:45, KJV
    45. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

    The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. In my opinion this can only mean a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment. The Abstract of Principles of the Southern [Baptist] Seminary also teach a general resurrection and judgment.

    When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

    [Two of twenty shown]
    XIX. The Resurrection
    The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

    XX. The Judgment
    God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

    I know that many people on the basis of Revelattion 20 believe in an earthly millennial reign. I do not believe that is the proper interpretation, however, I may be wrong.

    That being said I do not believe there is any Scripture or compilation of Scripture that can be used to support a pretrib rapture.
     
  13. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    We are in agreement! [​IMG]

    The statement of faith that you cited (XIX) could allow for the fuller understanding of Revelation - the "last day" commencing with the return of Christ and the bemis seat of Christ and ending with the Great White Throne Judgement. Therefore, the "hour" or "time" of John could be a reference to "day of the Lord" as mentioned above.

    What is interesting is that you and I can debate this issue based on Scriptural texts that directly speak to this issue. The pre-trib folks can't! There are no pre-trib proof texts in Scripture! There are rapture texts, but they all point to a post-trib rapture or from your point of view, a general resurrection.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Open note to Bro. Webdog:

    I see here (it is happening again) that when
    i present pre-tribulation rapture arguments that
    anti-pretribs cannot refute, there are several
    reactions (some people even use all of them ;) )

    1. Speak with such broad generalities that one
    cannot even figure out what they are talking about
    (but you can get the idea they don't like the pre-trib
    rapture, for whatever reason). Example: People
    who say: "There are no pre-trib proof texts in Scripture!"
    but who will not and/or cannot discuss specific scriptures
    given as 'proof' of pre-trib.

    2. ignore the pre-trib argument

    3. refute the person making the argument

    4. deney the way the person determined their point

    5. blame parties not present - prefered are dead parties
    who do not can cannot refute the bad stuff you say about them.
    Prefered by anti-pretribs is John Darby and Schofield.

    And just for good sport, Dear Bro. Webday -- on some
    rare days -- the actual points I made are argued against.
    WoW: it might even happen today [​IMG]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: " I ask you: can anything be worse than what the early Christians endured at the hands of the Roman Empire, being eaten alive by wild animals, dipped in tar and used as candles to light the scene for Roman festivals?"

    Obviously you refer to this scripture:


    Mat 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For then shall be great
    tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of
    the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
    22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
    there should no flesh be saued:
    but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

    Tribulation is suffering. Great tribulation can be
    great suffering. or Great tribulation can be many
    suffering. The population of the earth in the time of Nero
    was about 200 Million. Less than 1% of the Population was
    Christian (under 2 Million), less than 5% of the population
    was ever tortured as you described (less than 100,000).

    In 70AD when Judah was busted by General Titus, there
    were 3 million Jews. 1 Million were killed and 1 Million
    were made slaves. In the 1940s 6 million Jews were killed
    by the orders of Hitler (prototype of the antichrist).
    Worse here is a matter of quanity, not quality.

    Today Mankind alone can kill over 6,000 Millions of persons
    in flaimng Nuclear fire and the followup radiation.
    I think a God who wants to throw a tribulation can do
    worse than that.

    YOu know, in 1952
    when i first called Jesus my LOrd and was saved,
    i thought it was neat that God would one day wup it up
    on all the bad guys in the Tribulation period (AKA: Wrath
    of God).

    But about 1964 it became obvious that mankind had
    enough nuclear weapons to destroy all life on the face of the
    earth 24 times (since this has been reduced to a mere
    four times). Mankind need God it interceede to save mankind's
    life. It will happen soon.

    The tribulation of the world is a matter of scale, it
    is measured in number of people suffereing, not the
    suffering of some individuals.

    Thinks can be worse than you described. In fact, in
    the early 4th century (301-308) there was a
    persecution of Christians that caused probably 1 million
    persons - this 10th persecution (the last) by the
    Roman Emprire was the worse.
    This 10th persectuion was the worse under the Roman
    Empire, but it is mild compared to the suffering
    of the Great Tribulation people.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    1. The U.S. mountains are booked thru 2007
    in the matter of the Y2K thing alone [​IMG]

    2. What ever happened to the scripture
    that says " ... those who are in Judea
    flee ... "?
     
  17. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Ed,

    Most of your pre-trib comments are incomprehensible and need no refuting. [​IMG]

    But I'm game. Give me one Scripture text that points to a pre-trib rapture.

    You can't do it!
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Show me one scripture
    (no fair using mulitple scriptures that illuminate
    each other ;) ) that suggests velcro
    would be invented in the future.
    Can't find it. Nevertheless, velcro keeps
    my shoes on my feet :eek:
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2) our gathering together unto him

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
    Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ


    These two events are mentioned seperately
    throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
    was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
    in the N.T.

    Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

    Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
    ---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
    John 14:1-3
    Romans 8:19
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
    Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
    Colossians 3:4
    1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
    2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
    1 Timothy 6:14
    2 Timothy 4:1,8
    Hebrews 9:28
    1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Jude 1:21
    Revelation 2:25

    Second Advent Passages
    (Jesus comes again in power and glory
    to defeat the antichrist and set up the
    millinnial kingdom):

    Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
    Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
    Matthew 13:41
    Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
    1 Peter 4:12-19
    2 Peter 3:1-14
    Jude 1:14-15
    Revelation 4-19
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

    13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
    -- from the wrath to come
    13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come
     
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