Proverbs In The ESV And TNIV

I was going through the marginal notes of the NASU where it had : "Lit. __ ". In the book of Proverbs from chapters 1 - 21 there were 229 such occasions where the literal was noted in the margin and not in the text itself . That's rather staggering for what many think is the most ( next to the NKJ ) literal English version around .

I then went to the HCS Bible and saw 73 footnotes where the literal is givenin the footnotes and a more dynamic rendering is in the text . I found when looking at those 73 notes (for chapters 1 to 21) that the NASU had 17 of them in the text . The ESV had 15 , and the TNIV had 14 . That's pretty close among those versions , don't you think ? It is especially interesting because the TNIV is derided because it is considered too dynamic . Yet it matches up well with these rivals . Of course the book of Proverbs is just one book . It may not be representative . I shall see .

Meanwhile I will compare the ESV ( at the top ) and the TNIV ( below ) for some examples of what I see as much better wording in the latter . The accuracy of the meaning is not compromised either . I see a lot of bad grammar and unnatural speech that slipped the attention of Leland Ryken in his quest for literary excellence .

1:3 wise dealing
prudent behavior

1:14 we will all have one purse
we will all share the loot

3:8 It will be healing to your flesh
This will bring health to your body

6:28 his feet not be scorched
withou his feet being scorched ?

7:21 with much seductive speech
with persuasive words

9:5 eat of my bread
eat my food

11:3 the crookedness of the treacherous destroys them
the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity

11:8 The righteous is delivered from trouble
The righteous are rescued from trouble

11:14 a people falls
a nation falls

11:24 and only suffers want
but comes to poverty

11:31 If the righteous is repaid on earth
the righteous receive their due

12:16 The vexation of a fool is known at once
Fools show their annoyance at once

13:5 The righteous hates falsehood
The righteous hate what is false

13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite
The righteous eat to their hearts' content

14:16 One who is wise is cautious
The wise fear the Lord

14:20 The poor is disliked
The poor are shunned


To be continued later . Will you wait with baited breath ? Or will you simply be expectant ?

 

16:26 his mouth urges him on
their hunger drives them on

17:21 He who sires a fool
To have a fool for a child

19:7 He pursues them with words , but does not have them
they pursue him with pleading , they are nowhere to be found

19:18 do not set your heart on putting him to death
do not be a willing party to their death

20:13 Love not sleep
Do not love sleep

21:12 throws the wicked down to ruin
brings the wicked to ruin

21:18 The wicked is a ransom for the righteous
The wicked become a ransom for the righteous
NLT - The wicked are punished in place of the godly .

22:5 the way of the crooked
the paths of the wicked

22:7 The rich rules over the poor
The rich rule over the poor

22:9 he shares his bread with the poor
they share their food with the poor

22:23 rob of life those who rob them
will exact life for life

23:2 given to appetite
given to gluttony

23:5 When your eyes light on it
Cast but a glance at

23:20 be not among drunkards
Do not join those who drink too much wine

24:19 Fret not
Do not fret

24:28 Be not a witness
Do not testify

25:17 Let your feet be seldom
Seldom set foot

To be continued ...

 

26:2 a curse that is causeless does not alight
an undeserved curse does not come to rest

26:25 believe him not
do not believe them

30:7 deny them not to me
do not refuse me

30:12 clean in their own eyes
pure in their own eyes

30:25 the ants are a people not strong
Ants are creatures of little strength

31:8 Open your mouth for the mute
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves

31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands
Honor her for all that her hands have done

 

Of those 40 citations only 10 are found in the NRSV . That alone would demonstrate that the NRSV team took more time and exercised careful attention with their revision . They had to spend some considerable time to weed out many awkward phrases and simply bad grammar . They did not go far enough , but they made much more progress with their revision in that regard than the ESV team 12 years later .

Here are some examples of the changes they made to the RSV which the ESV team did not touch . The ESV rendering will be at the top and the NRSV wording will be below .

11:8 The righteous is delivered from trouble
The righteous are delivered from trouble

11:31 If the righteous is repaid on earth
If the righteous are repaid on earth

13:25 The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite
The righteous have enough to satisfy their appetite

14:20 The poor is disliked
The poor are disliked

22:7 The rich rules over the poor
The rich rule over the poor

 

In a thread of the past I had quoted some things from : " The Challenge Of Bible Translation " . The general editors are Scorgie , Strauss and Voth . It was pulished in 2003 .

I'll be citing some of the authors here . First , Moises Silva .

... translating clauses and sentences that cannot be rendered word-for-word and thus require restructuring would give students an entree into the genius ( i.e. , the authentic character ) of the foreign tongue . It would also help them see much more clearly that such restructuring could be the preferable method of rendering even when it may not appear "necessary." The point here is that a nonliteral translation , precisely because it may give expression to the genius of the target language ( in this case English ), can do greater justice to that of the source language . ( P.44)

D.A. Carson is next .

... I have taken second-year Greek students aside and explained at length how rarely a Greek participle should be rendered by an English participle , how many of the Greek connectives must find no formal equivalent in a specific English word but survive in the flow of the English sentence , and so forth . ( p. 102 )

Mark Strauss follows .

Or what about the obscurity and consequent distortion of meaning that so often result from the wooden literalness and linguistic naivete of the NASB and the NKJ ? ( 124 )

On a related note John H. Stek says :

... the main attraction of the NASB was its attempt to meticulously reproduce as fully as possible a word-for-word , clause-for-clause mirror reflection of the original-language texts , retaining their word order and reflecting their very grammatical nuance -- to reproduce form as well as content in the service of "accuracy . " But others were convinced that this supposed great strength of the version was in fact its major weakness . It was founded on unsound linguistic assumptions concerning how languages differ from each other in communicating meaning . ( 243 )

Walter W. Wessel wraps things up . He discusses the second Wycliffe Bible which was more idiomatic than the first overly literal version . Wycliffe's secretary -- John Purvey was most likely involved in this second endeavor . Wessel quotes Purvey .

First , it is to be known that the best translating out of Latin into English is to translate after the sentence [ meaning ] and not only after the words , so the sentence be as open [ clear ] or opener , in English as in Latin , and go not far from the letter ; and if the letter may not be followed in the translating , let the sentence be ever whole and open , for the words ought to serve the intent and sentence , or else the words be superfluous or false . ( 201 )

Wessel cites F.F. Bruce .

In other words , the translation must be intelligible without reference to the original . And if it is to be intelligible , it must be idiomatic , sufficiently idiomatic to convey the sense without difficulty to the reader whose only language is English . Yet the translator must bear in mind that it is Holy Writ that he is translating ; therefore , he will not depart from the letter of the original more than is necessary to convey the true and plain sense . ( 201,202 )

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply FM . You made no comment on those quotes from "The Challenge Of Bible Translation " though .

I will comment on your comments .

In 1:3 prudent behavior in the TNIV is borne out in the next verse as well . In the NKJ: "... to give prudence to the simple ". As you indicated , the words "wise" from the ESV and "prudent" in the TNIV are fairly equivalent .

3:8 It will be health to your flesh ... ( NKJ ) Flesh in this context means body . The Septuagint also has -- to your body . So the TNIV's : This will bring health to your body is about right .

7:21 The NET text has : "... with persuasive words " -- just like the TNIV . It is not just a rational appeal . The whole verse in the TNIV is : with persuasive words she led him astray ; she seduced him with her smooth talk .

11:3 The NET text has : crookedness of the unfaithful . I think in this case there is more merit in the ESV rendering . It goes : the crookedness of the treacherous destroys them .
What you said about duplicity is correct -- it has a more narrow range .

11:8 I had said that I was mainly addressing the bad grammar and unnatural language of the ESV . To render this verse as " The righteous is delivered from trouble" just ain't good speakin' in my pinion.
The NET text has : "The righteous person is delivered from trouble . " that is a whole lot better . So you object to the TNIV wording : "The righteous are rescued from trouble . " You claim that using the word rescued " indicates [ one ] is already exposed to peril . " Well , I beg to differ . There are many biblical examples . Daniel applied Proverbs very well in his life . This servant of the Lord was certainly in a dangerous situation -- exposed to peril and everything . So there is nothing wrong with the TNIV rendering . There is nothing wrong with the intent of the ESV rendering for this verse either -- with the exception of its bad grammar .

11:4 The ESV has " a people falls " . That's awkward language . The TNIV's " a nation falls " is correct . The NET text has it as well . I do not think that the use of the word nation is in any error .

11:24 ESV : and only suffers want
TNIV : but comes to poverty
NKJ : But it leads to poverty
The Hebrew has " comes to lack"
The NET text has : " comes to poverty "
You say poverty is a lasting condition . I disagree . This text is not referring to a perpetual condition . If one withholds unduly , or more than is right , it tends toward poverty .

11:31 ESV : If the righteous is repaid on earth ( bad grammar )
TNIV : If the righteous receive their due on earth
NET : If the righteous are recompensed on earth ( NKJ almost the same )
I think "recompensed" is a better word choice than the TNIV's " receive their due " . But the TNIV's basic thrust here still retains the same idea .

13:5 ESV : The righteous hates falsehood ( bad grammar )
TNIV : The righteous hate what is false
NET text : The righteous hate what is false
You are right . The words " what is false " includes much more than just lies . " What is false " could be a word or a thing . It is more comprehensive . I'llgo with the TNIV here .

13:25 ESV : The righteous has enough to satisfy his appetite ( bad grammar )
TNIV : The righteous eat to their hearts' content
You are right . The TNIV's rendering could suggest being gluttoneous . " Has enough to satisfy" has the connotation of being moderate which is more balanced wording .

14:16 ESV : One who is wise is cautious
TNIV : The wise fear the Lord
Net note : probably does not mean fear of the Lord -- but consequences of actions .
I disagree with the NET note . I think only when one fears the Lord will one shun evil . In 16:6b of the TNIv ... through the fear of the Lord evil is avoided .

14:20 ESV : The poor is disliked ( bad grammar )
TNIV : The poor is shunned
NKJ : The poor man is hated
NET note : The poor are rejected , avoided , shunned -- that is hated ...
I will have to give it to the TNIV here again .

 

Hi FM . First of all I want to be clear when I say that I appreciate both the ESV and NASU versions . They are both accurate , with the NASU leaning more toward formal equivalence . I primarily have an issue with the awkward language of both . The NKJ is even poorer in this regard .

Maybe you didn't notice , but I had said that in two references the ESV handled the text better than did the TNIV . Those references were 11:3 and 13:25 .