1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Question

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by faithtrustbelief, Sep 16, 2005.

  1. faithtrustbelief

    faithtrustbelief New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well guys the bylaws of the church state I would have to win 75% of the vote in order to be able to stay. I do not mind getting a secular job in order to stay here. However, I do not feel all the members are committed to be honest about it.

    I will pray again on the decision but I do feel like Jesus wants me to move on and find a new work.
     
  2. faithtrustbelief

    faithtrustbelief New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    I also would have to wait 2 weeks before the vote would take place. They are not going to pay me a dime for what I did this week. I do not have any more money coming in. There is no way my family would be able to survive not having any money coming in.
     
  3. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    0
    do the people of the church make the decisions?
     
  4. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can not imagine them sitting by while you go unproved for.
     
  5. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would start looking for another job. Even if they don't vote you out, they don't have enough money to pay you. Your first obligation is to your family.
     
  6. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    0
    well 2nd obligation.
     
  7. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,333
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Second only to the obvious One, [​IMG] .
     
  8. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    0
    I said this earlier. When will churches start relying on God?

     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you don't stay and at least try to fix the problem, all you will do is leave it for the next guy to face. If you fight now, he might not have to fight later, nor the guy who follows him, etc., etc.
     
  10. faithtrustbelief

    faithtrustbelief New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    TCassidy,

    The members of the church want to close it. I do not want to close it but they do. The one that is causing all these problems wants to talk with me tomorrow. Lets pray God has made him see the error of his ways.
     
  11. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    2
    Sir, would the members of your church want to continue if they could simply meet in your home, away from this man's disturbing influence?
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,549
    Likes Received:
    15
    Leadership Journal, Winter 2003

    Preacher in the Hands of an Angry Church

    Jonathan Edwards's church kicked him out after 23 years of ministry, but the crisis proved his greatness was not merely intellectual.
    by Chris Armstrong

    As messy dismissals of ministers go, the 1750 ejection of Jonathan Edwards by his Northampton congregation was among the messiest. The fact that it involved the greatest theologian in American history—the central figure of the Great Awakening—is almost beside the point. The fact that it took place in a New England fast moving from theocratic "city on a hill" to democratic home of liberty is more relevant.

    But another aspect is worth a closer look: Friends and enemies alike agreed that in the long, degenerating discontent, Edwards continued to love and pray for—or at least tolerate and refrain from attacking—his people, even when they bared their fangs.

    Salary controversies and power struggles marked his ministry during the 1740s. In the infamous "bad book" episode of 1744, some teen boys in the church distributed a midwife's manual, using it to taunt and make suggestive comments in front of girls. When the culprits were summoned before the church, their response, according to documents of the proceedings, was "contemptuous . . . toward the authority of this Church."

    Edwards chose to read before the church a list containing, indiscriminately, the names of both the young distributors as well as the purported witnesses. Some parents were outraged at Edwards.

    Another issue was Edwards's personality and style as a minister. At the outset of his ministry at Northampton, for example, he decided that he would not pay the customary regular visits to his congregants, but would rather come to their side only when called in cases of sickness or other emergency. This made him seem, to some in the church, cold and distant.

    An Edwards "disciple," Samuel Hopkins, later wrote that this practice was not due to lack of affection and concern for his people: "For their good he was always writing, contriving, labouring; for them he had poured out ten thousand fervent prayers; and they were dear to him above any other people under heaven."

    Rather, Edwards had made a clear-eyed assessment of his own gifts and decided that he was unable to match the graceful gregariousness of those ministers who had a "knack at introducing profitable, religious discourse in a free, natural, and . . . undesigned way."

    Thus he would "do the greatest good to souls . . . by preaching and writing, and conversing with persons under religious impressions in his study, where he encouraged all such to repair."

    Edwards's ministry might yet have endured, however, were it not for the death of his uncle, Colonel John Stoddard, in 1748. Born in 1682, 21 years before Edwards, the colonel had built a friendship with his nephew. A sharp thinker, a county judge, and a savvy politician, John was a militia colonel who had become commander-in-chief of the Massachusetts western frontier by 1744. Stoddard wore—at least in the secular sphere—the mantle of his father and Edwards's grandfather, "pope" of the Connecticut Valley, Solomon Stoddard.

    Edwards found himself often leaning on his uncle's influence to navigate the affairs of the church. Thus when Stoddard died, Edwards lost not only an uncle but a powerful ally and confidante.

    As Iain Murray put it in his biography of Edwards: "There would be no open criticism of Edwards as long as Stoddard sat appreciatively in his pew beneath the pulpit in the meeting-house Sunday by Sunday." Once the colonel was gone, however, that changed dramatically.

    Stoddard's heir-apparent as Hampshire County's leading figure was Edwards's cousin Israel Williams, a Harvard graduate, imperious in manner and implacably set against Edwards. In his early nineteenth-century biography, descendant S. E. Dwight named Israel and several others of the Williams clan as having "religious sentiments [that] differed widely from" those of Edwards. Their opposition soon became "a settled and personal hostility." Williams served as counselor and ringleader to Edwards's opponents. Joining this opposition were another cousin, Joseph Hawley Jr., 21 years Edwards's junior.

    Visible saints, hidden agendas
    The same year John Stoddard died, an event finally pushed the hostile faction into open revolt.

    For years, Edwards had been uncomfortable with the lenient policy on membership and communion set by his grandfather, Solomon Stoddard, Edwards's predecessor at Northampton. Stoddard had allowed almost anyone to join and to partake, hoping that membership and communion might encourage true conversion. In 1748, Edwards changed the policy and told an applicant for church membership that he must first make a public "profession of godliness."

    Thus Edwards rejected the "Halfway Covenant"—the longstanding compromise of the Puritans who had, generations after planting their religious colonies, found their church membership dwindling. That compromise had reversed the traditional Puritan requirement that new church members be "visible saints," godly in word and deed.

    When the congregation saw that Edwards intended to return to the earlier, stricter Puritan position, demanding not only a profession of faith, but also evidence of repentance and holiness, a firestorm arose. Many of the church's leading members felt Edwards's innovation was a direct threat.

    Two revivals had produced many converts, but, as biographer Patricia Tracy put it, "Men and women who had been recognized as visible saints in Northampton still wallowed in clandestine immorality and flagrant pride."

    Though Edwards knew, as he notes in his letters, that he was likely to lose his pastorate as a result, he stuck to his principles.

    A council of the congregation put a moratorium on new memberships until the issue of criteria could be resolved. Edwards told them he planned to preach on his reasons for changing the policy. They forbade him to do so. Edwards began to write a book on the matter. Few read it, and too late to do much good.

    In 1750, a council was called to consider whether the congregation would dismiss its minister. No one doubted what the conclusion would be.

    Edwards's friend David Hall noted in his diary the minister's reaction when on June 22, 1750, the council handed down its decision:

    "That faithful witness received the shock, unshaken. I never saw the least symptoms of displeasure in his countenance the whole week but he appeared like a man of God, whose happiness was out of the reach of his enemies and whose treasure was not only a future but a present good . . . even to the astonishment of many who could not be at rest without his dismission."

    46 and unemployed
    Edwards wrote that he now found himself a 46-year-old ex-minister "fitted for no other business but study," with a large family to provide for. Although he knew "we are in the hands of God, and I bless him, I am not anxious concerning his disposal of us," he fretted over his situation in letters to friends. Yet neither the distressing conditions nor the continuing antagonism of his opponents drew him out to open attack.

    Remarkably (and partly because of financial need), Edwards agreed to continue preaching at the church while they searched for a replacement. But his Farewell Sermon also indicates he acted out of continued concern for the flock. He continued through mid-November, despite the Town maliciously barring him, a month after his dismissal, from using its common grazing land.

    Finally in December 1750, after an anxious autumn during which he had even considered removing his entire family to Scotland to accept an invitation there, Edwards accepted a charge in Massachusetts's "wild west," the Indian town of Stockbridge. There he would labor the rest of his life, pursue his theological thinking to its most brilliant heights, and create one of the most enduring missionary biographies of all time, the life story of his young friend David Brainerd.

    Belated praise
    In 1760, his former enemy, cousin Joseph Hawley, wrote to Edwards's friend David Hall, confessing that "vast pride, self-sufficiency, ambition, and vanity" had animated his leadership in the "melancholy contention" with Edwards. He repented of his earlier failure to render the respect due Edwards as a "most able, diligent and faithful pastor."

    Hawley concluded, "I am most sorely sensible that nothing but that infinite grace and mercy which saved some of the betrayers and murderers of our blessed Lord, and the persecutors of his martyrs, can pardon me; in which alone I hope for pardon, for the sake of Christ, whose blood, blessed by God, cleanseth from all sin."

    On June 22, 1900, exactly 150 years after Edwards's dismissal, a group gathered at the First Church in Northampton to unveil a bronze memorial.

    H. Norman Gardiner, a professor of philosophy at Smith College and chairman of the memorial committee, characterized Edwards's ejection as "a public rejection and banishment" that remained "a source of reproach to his church and people." He noted the "hatred, malice, and uncharitableness which characterized the opposition to him," for which, to Gardiner, no apology either contemporary or modern could atone.

    Edwards would have disagreed, arguing instead that even such deeply wounding actions as the aggravated and wrongful dismissal of a pastor from his pulpit of 23 years are not unforgivable. In that understanding, as in so much else, Edwards was far ahead both of his enemies and of many of us today.

    For 2003 Christian History magazine is publishing an issue commemorating the 300th anniversary of Edwards's birth. For information visit www.christianhistory.net
    Copyright © 2003 by the author or Christianity Today International/Leadership Journal.
    Winter 2003, Vol. XXV, No. 1, Page 52
     
  13. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,549
    Likes Received:
    15
    Just as that man has cause troubles he can humble himself. When that happens it will be amazing what God will do.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sounds like some tough issues. Just a few comments from my perspective.

    I would meet with the man and see what he says. Be loving and forgiving.

    I would never not know about the church's finances. How did you lose track of that? It is imperative that the pastor, as overseer of the church, actually do the job of overseeing. If you had no idea that the finanacial situation was as it is, then the ball got dropped somewhere. Nothing you can do about it now, but keep it in mind for the future. I get a weekly offering report and a monthly financial statement to keep track of things. I know long before we are in trouble. It is always bad to have one person, or a few people, who are the main financial support, or the power structure. You have to fight that, and sit down and study the Book with them to see who has leadership in teh church. When one person like this man is controlling, he is disobedient to Scripture, and if you let him control, you are not doing the job of overseeing and managing that God has called you to do.

    If the people want to close the church, I would consider starting over, but I would be very particular about who out of the old congregation could come. If there are not outstanding debts, then you might be able to get the building transferred. If there are outstanding debts, those have to be satisfied. It might be better in teh long run to get the building, sell it, and use the money to restart with new people.

    With respect to getting a job, don't be above that, but analyze very carefully. If the group that called you there is not helpig you in the ministry by doing the work of growth, I would not get a job and continue to pastor those people. Here's why: They called you full time. They didn't do the work to grow. Now, they want you to take up the slack because they slacked off. You would be bailing out people who don't want the ministry responsibility. I wouldn't do it. If they were working hard to grow, then that's different. If the troublemakers left, then that's different. If there are legitimate financial issues (bad economy, layoffs, etc), then that's different. But if they simply don't want to make the financial commitment they agreed to, then don't bail them out. Start over. God will not honor that kind of sinfulness in the members.

    To me, this sounds like a leadership problem, my friend. It sounds like you perhaps didn't exercise strong biblical leadership and oversight, and allowed this man too much leeway. In hindsight, perhaps it could have been different. Whatever the outcome, learn from it. God has called the pastor to lead, to oversee, to manage, to have charge in the church. His job is not simply to preach and visit. It is hard to get the leadership role away from the power brokers, but it is necessary over a period of time to have a solid church.

    Sounds like the resigning/firing issue is on the backburner, especially if the church won't survive anyway. I would be inclined to stick it out. I would also change the constitution immediately if not sooner. To allow 25% to kick out a pastor is unconscionable it seems to me. 75% is usually necessary to call a pastor. A minumum of 50% should be required to kick him out. To not allow blacks in the church is sinful. The ones who are keeping them out should be requested to repent, and if they refuse, church discipline should be pursued. That is an ungodly attitude that will harm the body.

    Lastly, to the one who said that the pastor was the only legitimate bill for a church, I don't quite get that. There are things like lights, and water, and insurance, and the like that are perfectly legitimate bills for the church.

    This is a great time of hurt and confusion I am sure. Examine yourself and your motives and your heart. Don't let bitterness and anger eat at you, even silently. Love the people without conditions, even the ones who hurt you. Don't retaliate. Let God handle it. Always be graceful. And learn the lessons.
     
  15. buckster75

    buckster75 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    0
    No mothly business meeting? no treas. report? This is a Baptist site?
     
  16. Jamey W.

    Jamey W. New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is a good idea. Even if the church closes, you can still gather together in each other's homes.
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    As long as you keep meeting, preaching the Word, and ministering to the needs of the community, the Church will never close no matter where you meet. These people have placed a carnal emphasis on a building instead of focusing on the Church.

    Do not quit. Make them fire you.

    If they wish you to stay and work for nothing, get a secular job to support your family and continue preaching the Word. Make sure they clearly understand that you will not be full time and that they will have to take up some of the ministering slack.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  18. faithtrustbelief

    faithtrustbelief New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well let me clear up some things first. First of all I tried my hardest to get a hold of financial reports for the church, but this treasurer denied me time and time again. The treasurer just so happens to the man who is causing all the trouble. I asserted my biblical authority and he denied it. So I did what I was supposed to. This is partly the reason I am being persecuted. So the ball ws not dropped there by me, and you were way off. Not your fault you didn't know those details.

    Here is the amazing work God can do. The treasurer who is also the one causing all the problems for me by persecuting me called and apologized in tears of sorrow. He came over give me hug and said he was sorry and he was doing and said everything just to try and make me mad. He said the reason the church is having to close is because of him, not me. He stated he tried to control the church, and when I preached it is not his church but God's and I took a hard stand on God's word he was saying all those things to get back at me. He admitted he has run all the other preachers off when they would take stands, but they would always run. He said when I didn't he didnt know what else to do but attack me. He said you were the first who did not run. He stated someone told him : "Man you don't touch God's anointed ones. Dont you know that."

    He then stated his business is falling under all of the sudden, the IRS is after him, and his house has a tree from the storm in his house, and he has lost over 2 million dollars. He stated God has told him all that was due to him attacking one of his under-shepards. God has humbled this man greatly. However, I have now found out why I had so much trouble growing this church. He stated noone in the community will come cause of me, not you.

    Last night he came to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord of his life. He stated he feels that none of the members including him are committed to taking care of the church, nor the pastor. He stated he wants to close the church and go somewhere where he is not the treasurer or anything but an average Joe in order to grow spiritually.

    I have gotten calls from a number of members who wish they could keep me as their pastor, but they state they will never step into that church again due to what he has done to me. They said if I could get a pastor position some where else they would defintely come there.

    After all this I prayed to Jesus to give me an answer. After the gentleman coming to the saving knowledge of Christ, and the members not wanting to come. Jesus really burdened my heart to resign and has told me he would open a new work for me. The decision has been made without my consent to close the church. I told them I do not want to close it, but everyone else does. they all stated they do not feel they are doing what it takes to take care of me, and they need to get right spiritually.

    Here is another amazing thing. Isn't God great! I have received 2 calls from churches in the area I am already in that want to look at me fro their open Pastors position. I also received an email from multiple state conventions emailing me a list of pastorless churches. I received these emails shortly again after all this happened once more. I know in my heart if they do close the church tomorrow after the church service then God will open up a new church for me.

    I HAVE STOOD ONE THE WORD OF GOD. I HAVE STOOD FR GOD'S CHURCH! I HAVE STOOD TO KEEP IT OPEN! JUST LIKE GOD HAS TOLD ME TOO! Even though I am going through hard times, I am also being taught alot, and being blessed by god all the time.

    MARK MY WORDS! MY Lord and Savior will open up a new church for me if this door closes.

    THANK YOU LORD FOR THE BLESSINGS!
     
Loading...