Questions to ask a prospective pastor

Well, my guess is that attitude would come out in other ways without needing to ask a personal and potentially painful question. Maybe, "How do you feel about children?" or "What is your perspective on the value of raising children?" That would be more appropriate than asking a person why they and their spouses don't have children.

I also believe that there are some married people who are called to things besides parenting, regardless of the physical possibility. I know there are many who would disagree, but that's where I am on the issue at the moment.

No, I'm not saying it doesn't matter. It may be obvious that his children are poorly trained. But it's not necessarily that simple. I think asking about and observing the methods of parenting would be more telling. There are many parents who are not good parents, even if they strongly desire to be. In that case, there might be better candidates. But if a candidate is struggling in particular with one or more children, it should be taken into account.

Additionally, we need to look more closely at the context of that text, both textual and historical. We need to know to whom Paul was speaking and why. I'm not an exegete and, though I've studied theology extensively, I am not as proficient in Pauline interpretation as I'd like to be.

I suppose disagreement could be interpreted as fighting, but not necessarily. Different people have different temperaments and navigate administration of relationship differently. This is not to excuse abusive behavior or violent arguments.

There are also cases in which people think they're being civil when they are really just repressed. I'm not for a moment suggesting that about you and your spouse, but there are couples I know who are like that (my parents).

Larry, I can tell you are a very thoughtful gentleman. Thank you for respectful and engaging discussion. It is a pleasant contrast to a few other tactics we see from time to time.

Blessings.

 

How did Jesus yelling/calling Peter, Satan, build him up? But Jesus sure got to the point when Peter tried to rebuke Him!

Now again, I'm not condoning yelling as a good activity for a husband and wife to engage in. But most if not all marriages go through periods of discord, including pastors and their wives. My contention is that it is not something that disqualifies a pastor from serving in such a capacity.

 

As I asked you before (and you didn't answer), where is the evidence that Jesus yelled? I don't see that in the text, either in the temple or with Peter. So what are you basing it on?

Getting to the point of a wrong view of life is one thing. I have no problem with that. i have no problem with disagreement. My point has always been about the way people disagree.

 

My Bible has exclamation points in it for those passages. Exclamation points indicate strong feelings and/or high volume. Evidently the translators agree that Jesus was raising His voice. I doubt He calmly instructed the money changers to leave the temple as He cracked His whip! Nor as He called Peter, Satan!

TCassidy: Very funny posts! I salute you sir!:thumbsup:

 

Tghere are rather harsh disagreements recorded in the NT such Paul and Mark as well as others.

 

Was it an SBC church?

 

I have been married 33 years, and this is my first marriage. Since I have not been called to be a Pastor, and have sense enough to know I never will be, my only interest in this would be someone called to our local church as pastor.

Are you saying that anyone who has ever raised their voice to their spouse is not qualified to be a pastor? How many couples do you think meet that standard? To me, there is a difference between an occasional argument and constant 24 hour bickering.

As far as being a pastor for some extended period of time such as seven years without God's call, I would think the success would be superficial only, and inside, the person would be very miserable. That is why I question the time frame.

 

Nope, that's nowhere in what I said.

I don't think I ever have. At least I can't remember it. But I have made it a point not to. After struggling greatly with my temper up to the age of about 20, I have never gone back there. I tend to get sullen and silent (which is also dangerous), but I am not out of control about it.

I agree. I think I mentioned that earlier.

I don't.

 

But surely you recognize that those aren't inspired by God. It is not a part of verbal revelation. Furthermore, exclamation points indicate a number of things, not always high volume. I have no doubt that Jesus had "strong feelings." I doubt seriously that he yelled in the manner that we are talking about here. It's just not in the text, as you well know. You had a point you wanted to make and went in search of a text for it. You didn't find one so you appealed to punctuation.

Again, that's simply not true.

But the text is the authority, not your beliefs and doubts. And the fact is that the text doesn't say that.

 

Harsh disagreement is not at issue. I have no problem with harsh disagreement. The issue is self-control.

I think you mean Paul and Barnabas about Mark, and there is no indication of yelling in the text, and it is not held up as a mandate. As you know (or should know) much of the historical narrative is about what did happen, not what should happen. So you can't really appeal to that to say that it's okay for a pastor to yell at his wife.

There continues to be a part of me that is amazed that this is even a conversation. How in the name of anything is this even disputable?

 

Maybe my conception of a call of the Lord is way off base. He either calls someone to be a pastor or He does not. There are no shades of gray. How could a Christian, who is charged with being in the will of the Lord anyhow, have inner peace and joy, if either:
1. He is holding a pastor's job and is not called.
2. He is not serving as pastor and is called.
Would you please explain how either of those would produce within a person the peace of God that passes all understanding?

 

That's a ridiculous claim. I simply appealed to a Scripture in which Jesus was rebuking a disciple. A part of the bride of Christ you had mentioned. And concerning this rebuke the Holman New Testament Commentary says on pg 255, "Get behind Me! has the same impact as Away from Me! in 4:10" Do you really believe Jesus rebuked Satan in a calm level voice? I would say common sense says no.

If you want to apply this go ahead. So then show me the specific text which says that a pastor having a loud argument with his wife makes him unqualified to pastor. Not a passage you interpret to have that meaning, but a word for word text.

 

I think it impossible to overestimate the seduction of sin and authority. For instance a man in love with fame, authority, and popularity can get it in the church pretty easily when he is not called by God. He will have "inner peace and joy" (as subjective and fleeting as those can be) because he is getting what he wants--fame and popularity. He has authority and he loves it.

Furthermore, that peace can leave pretty easy for a man in the pastorate. Things go wrong in a hurry and you can lose it. You can't base anything on that.

I think the call is two fold:

There is an inner call -- If anyone desires the office of overseer ... But this is subjective.
There is an outer call -- it comes through the church evaluating a man according to Scripture in terms of life and doctrine, ability to teach and lead.

Both are important. If a man's church does not confirm the call, then I would strongly urge the man to listen to them.

Furthermore, it is possible to be called and to be disqualified because of sin, whether permanently or temporarily.

 

It is ridiculous to say that because something isn't in the text, it can't be depended on? Wow, interesting. That has some pretty serious ramifications for bibliology.

I do think it was calm. I see no reason to think that Jesus was yelling, much less sinfully, which is actually the case here. If you read the context, in neither case do you see Jesus upset and out of control. You know that, I imagine. You are just making stuff up now.

You keep appealing to Jesus. Jesus never sinned. That does not make our sin acceptable or like his. That's the point. Don't distract from it. You can't find anything in Scripture that justifies a man having loud arguments with his wife. It's just not there, and you know it or you would have cited it already.

I on the other hand have given indications of biblical teaching that shows that a man who is not self-controlled, who is not peaceable, who does not manage his own house well, who does not love his wife as Christ loved the chruch and build her up is clearly in sin and is disqualified from pastorate. Yet, for obvious reasons, you don't want to talk about those passages.

So let's ask a new question: How much can a man get away with in his marrage and still be qualified? Where do you think the line is?

You have a very deficient view of Scripture. No one has ever suggested that the text must be explicit "word for word" to have meaning. No one in history believed that, and no one should believe it now. God expects us to be able to use the brain he gave us to know what this looks like. The qualifications are clear and a man who has loud arguments with his wife is undeniably outside of them.

The thing is, I still can't understand why this is debatable. You seriously think a man who has loud arguments with his wife is self-controlled, peaceable, loving, edifying, leading well? You seriously he is a good model of Christian marriage for young couples in the church? Quit beating around the bush and appealing to bad examples, and just answer me that.

Honestly, given your story, I wonder if you are in a place where you have to justify yourself because you know if you admit I am right about this you fault yourself. I think there's a lot of grace and while I think (based on your story you told) you were wrong, forgiveness is great and restoration is possible. If you are still "sub-5" there's a problem. But you say you have grown.

 

Kind of like your claim about loud arguments huh?

Out of control? No. Upset? Yes.

That is exactly my point. Jesus raised His voice, Jesus rebuked people in error, and He was perfect with no sin what so ever. Yelling is not necessarily a sin! I do not believe it is necessarily a sin for someone to raise their voice in an argument.

Because none of those passages deal with a loud argument between a pastor and his wife. You can argue loudly and still be in control. You can argue loudly and still make peace just like in a monotone argument. You can raise your voice and still manage your home. You can love your wife and still have moments of expressed frustration.

No sir. Nothing undeniable about it. That is simply your interpretation.

I can tell you where it's not. It's not with loud arguments.

It's far healthier than repressing the issues that arise in a marriage.

I already stated that I enjoy a wonderful marriage today. No need to insinuate otherwise sir.

 

No, not at all like it. My are based in what the text says. Yours are based in what the text doesn't say.

Exactly my point. It's not wrong to be upset. It's the way we handle it. People in control don't have loud arguments, particularly not with people they love like Christ loved the church.

And still not one word of Scripture to back this claim up. Why? Your sole appeal here is to a exclamation point. And you apparently think that is a good argument. I don't.

Excellent. This is one of the qualifications for pastor (Titus 1).

Who said it was?

In what cases would a person raise their voice in an argument righteously?

They all do in fact because loud arguments are expressions of character (out of the heart the mouth speaks). They reveal idolatry (gotta have it my way; I have to convince you at all costs that I am right and if I destroy you in the process, that's okay). They reveal a lack of self-control. People yell out of anger. They reveal selfishness.

NOtice you have not yet made one biblical argument in favor of a man and wife having loud arguments.

Why would you argue loudly? What would necessitate that?

Nope, it's undeniable. Think about the pastoral qualifications and what they look like in marriage. Take yourself out of it and just think about the text.

How can you tell me that? Is this another "exclamation point" type of argument?

When you tell me Jesus yelled, I am just supposed to accept that's the way it happened. And yet when I tell you something, you are allowed to not accept it? You see, that's what happens when you leave the text of Scripture. You enter into a realm of pure subjectivism. I reject that. Let's deal with the text.

I get the feeling if we were having this discussion in person, you would be raising your voice at me. (And I would be sitting here laughing, as I said earlier). If you point is not convincing in and of itself, making it louder won't help. People yell when they get frustrated.

Think about the fruit of the Spirit and ask how that plugs into loud arguments in marriage.

Really?? I doubt that. That's nonsense. Most people would do much better to keep their mouths shut when they are upset. It will prevent them from saying stupid things.

But why is either acceptable? What about biblical conflict resolution?

You don't have to "sir" me. And I didn't insinuate otherwise. You conveniently omit things, which is what you also do with Scripture. With my words, it's no big deal, but with God's it is. I clearly said "you say you have grown." I insinuated nothing about what your marriage being bad. I in fact said the opposite.

I hope you don't do much marriage counseling. Because I think telling people it's okay to have loud arguments is pretty destructive. Calling people to live in peace and humility is much better.

Again I ask, How much can a man get away with in his marrage and still be qualified? Where do you think the line is?

Don't just bail out this time. Tell us what you think the qualifications mean.

 

Nope. Both are based on our interpretation of a particular text.

Being loud is not a sign of being out of control. That's your interpetation again.

I've presented Scriptures and you have refuted them because the Bible is not written like a script from a play where the intended emphasis on each line is indicated. Instead we are left to interpret the emphasis which I have done and you disagree with.

You did. Apparently it means you have lost self-control.

Maybe for you, but not for everybody.

I have not made a biblical argument in favor of arguments of any kind. My argument has been that loud arguments are not a disqualifier for the pastorate.

If I take myself out of it and just think about the text I would still have to come to an interpetation of the text. Just as you have done.

It's you who have done this not me. You generate a conclusion about loud arguments that isn't specifically stated in Scripture and then criticize me for interpreting a text in a common sense manner. If Jesus we cracking a whip in the temple and overturning tables it indicates He was upset. Common sense says He didn't order the money changers out of the temple in a calm voice. Why don't we have a poll about it?

Nope. My wife and I have shared many laughs concerning your view. I can't say that I have been upset by it once. I learned not to take offense at legalists a long time ago. In fact I shared this debate with my church in Wednesday night Bible study and we all shared a great laugh.

Sure. Let's just internalize our issues that's a great idea :thumbs:

I actually do a great deal of pre-marital and marital counseling. I have never told people it's ok to have loud arguments. Now you are just being juvenile. I do however, inform them that marriages have their ups and downs. All marriages inlcluding pastors. And I often share some of my early marriage experiences.

I don't know that I like the phrase "get away with" but I'll try to address this anyway. I believe in the qualifications listed in Scripture. A pastor should be "blameless" meaning no bad accusation can be made against him. I believe a pastor should be the husband of one wife (and yes I fall into the one wife at a time interpetation), I believe a pastor should be temperate meaning to exercise moderation (which if applied very strictly might eliminate some overweight preachers I know!), he should be sober-minded, ...(I'll skip a few for the sake of time if that is ok), not quarrelsome which means being given to beligerent behavior (something I would not say a loud argument falls into), he must rule his own house well, which means he should be a good husband and father, he should spend time with his family, he should teach and discipline his children, he should provide for his family and protect his family.

Again I don't see anything about loud arguments in there. In fact I would contend that a man who has a few loud arguments in his home is at least trying to deal with his family discord. To me that's better than those who ignore issues in the home.