Questions to ask a prospective pastor

Would you say the same thing is true of being a car mechanic? God calls everyone to follow Him and to make disciples. A small percentage of the population retires from pastoring but nobody retires from following Jesus and making disciples unless they are apostate.

 

Well, only in a very loose sense. You can say Jesus drank grape kool-aid as an interpretation, but some interpretations are just bad interpretations.

I didn't say being loud was a sign of being out of control. Again, you are simply not reading closely. I said "loud arguments." My kids are loud quite frequently. And we have fun with it. It's not out of control.

No, I didn't. Go back and read. I never said yelling was a sin.

Are you noticing a trend here, that you skip parts of what was said to make it look like something else was said?

I enjoy debate and discussion. I don't enjoy people making stuff up about what I said. Please read carefully.

It could only be more specific if it said "loud arguments" and then people would find exceptions. Instead it talks about character categories and understanding biblical teaching about human nature tells us what fits in there.

Nothing wrong with being upset.

I think what the text says is more important than what common sense says. You think he carried on a loud argument with these people?

Why? Is Scripture not sufficient?

Good. Glad to hear.

If you think I am a legalist, that may be the funniest thing you have said yet. I am as far from a legalist as you can get, probably. The idea that biblical qualifications are important is not legalism.

Hopefully you took some time to talk about what the Bible does say rather than what it does not say.

Absolutely. It's called self-control. There's no virtue in losing control. There is virtue in gaining it.

Not at all. Nothing juvenile about it. I simply see no indication of understanding of biblical conflict resolution. You say it's natural. I agree. THat's the problem. By nature, we are sinners. The Bible calls us to a different way.

You have said he can get away with loud arguments. What else? Where does the line get drawn? What if he does this yelling a foot away? Is that a disqualifier? Or six inches? At what point does this man who behaves in this way become disqualified?

My former neighbor (an unbeliever) used to have loud arguments with his wife and kids that could be heard inside of other houses. You better believe he wasn't blameless in any sense. He had a reputation for it, and it wasn't a good one. And that is exactly my point. People who have loud arguments get reputations that are not good ones, and that, as you admit, is a disqualifier.

But doesn't this apply to the way he carries on arguments? If it does, then how can you disagree with me? Shouldn't he moderate his voice and his argumentative nature?

How does a loud argument not fit into this? What is the difference between belligerent behavior and a loud argument?

You have already made three very good cases for it being in there. And you skipped a couple of other places.

That's like saying a guy who beats his kid for disobedience is at least trying to deal with disobedience. You can't deal with family discord by creating more of it. And families with loud arguments are discordant families. IT's why kids learn to deal with problems by yelling.

It is just as important to deal with something in the right way as it is to deal with it.

I remember years ago dealing with a family that was experiencing a divorce. The daughters were constantly yelling at their mother and father. The dad said to me remorsefully, "They handle problems that way because that's all they have ever seen. They don't know any other way." One reason it disqualifies is because it falsely teaches what marriage and respect and love are to be about. I have never known children who respected a yelling dad or mom. Why should a church? Or a community?

I have yet to see any good reason for loud arguments in a family. I have seen a lot of reasons against it, and with your help, have showed reasons why it is a disqualifier for ministry, at least for a time.

And why are loud arguments and ignoring issues the only two options? You keep going back to two options and participate in the fallacy of the excluded middle. You focus on two wrong ways and ignore the right way ... someone who lovingly and patiently leads his family.

And you didn't address the fruit of the Spirit. How does that fit in here? Where do we see loud arguments in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?

 

So as long as a pastor has well insulated walls he's good then right? He can still be blameless if he keeps his marital issues between he and his wife.

His moderation is shown in that he should try to avoid excessive arguments of anykind.

If I were to curse at my wife (which I have never done), verbally degrade my wife (which I have never done) or threaten my wife (which I have never done) that would be beligerent. Simply arguing loudly is not beligerent.

I think the fruits of the Spirit are wonderful. You asked me to address pastoral qualifications.

I have read carefully, you should write more carefully.

Kind of like human nature tells us Jesus was upset and yelling in the temple.

Pastor Larry: We can debate this back and forth, but we do not seem to be covering any new ground. Nor are we likely to convince one another of our position. You think loud arguments disqualify a man from pastoring, and I simply disagree. I believe pastors can go through periods of discord in their marriage the same as any other couple, and God continue to use that man in his position as pastor. This will be my final post on this issue. I appreciate your willingness to share your views in spite of my disagreeing with them. God bless you.

 

No, my point is that even unbelievers recognize that loud arguments are problematic and they lose respect for people who carry them on. Perhaps this is a case such as Jesus referenced where the children of darkness are wiser than the children of light.

At least. I would say any argument that leads to yelling is excessive.

Compare the FoS with the qualifications and note the similarities. If the pastor is to be an example of what it means to be a Christian, then the FoS is a part of it. And I asked you to address the FoS.

I certainly should write more carefully, but there is no way to overestimate the way that people can misunderstand or misuse. But the fact is that you misused by words by omitting key words. You misrepresented what I said by saying that I said that yelling was a sin, when I expressly did not say that.

Human nature doesn't tell us that at all.

I do to. That's not our disagreement. This is another case of you painting the discussion inaccurately. The point is about how we handle disagreement.

When you start asking people why they yell in conversation, most of them will have no answer. Next time you hear it ask, "Why are you raising your voice?" I bet they will not have an answer because they have never thought about it. Ask them, "Does you point get better because you yell it? Do you think the other person hears you better? What do you think their response is to your yelling?" (In most cases, it simply causes the other person to tune you out and turn their own volume up.) Think about it: If you are three feet away from someone who is not deaf, they will not hear you better when you yell. You will simply be expressing your own frustrations, and you will create a defensive situation, not an open one. Most people will not feel loved, respected, and built up after having been yelled at. They will feel belittled, embarrassed, mad, angry, and resistant to you.

I think there is a lot more to this than you are thinking about.

Same to you. I have enjoyed the conversation.

 

Or it might simply reveal that they are unable to conceive.:tonofbricks:

 

Either way, that's no business to a committee. There are more appropriate ways to discern his view of children. Like asking his view of children.

 

Exactly. Either way, the fact that a couple is childless does not necessarily imply that they love money.

However, if they have children, they don't love money either. You can't love something that isn't there!

 

Biblically breaking a betrothal in scripture required a divorce. So in essence breaking an engagement is the the equivalent of the same thing today just that there are not any contracts drawn up except a ring or oral agreement.

Ask them how much Nyquil they consume.

His real doctrinal statement is how he lives. That can be seen in his home and in the disciples he has made.

Too often if someone is particularly excellent the leaders might want that person but once the man gets there then they do not want to do the work that is necessary for ministry.

What I found interesting was that too often churches want someone who has had years of ministry in a church but not proven years of ministry in the real world. When I was in seminary it was amazing how many men did nothing while in seminary.

When I pastored I got tired of the leaders who would say something to me about it being so easy for me when I was pastoring and they did not like it when I would tell them about what I had done a few years earlier before pastoring. Lazy folks want excuses.

 

The one question that would disqualify every pastor on this list.

DO YOU DAILY WASTE TOO MUCH TIME ON THE INTERNET?

 

That's subjective. I will freely admit that I spend a lot of time on the internet. But since I'm deaf and don't play golf, I don't waste time chatting up my buddies on the phone or the golf course. :laugh: