R Sproul's book "Chosen by God".

Larry;

That isn't what I said. You assume to know what's in my mind and you're as mistaken as you are about what God knew before the foundation of the world. You can't read my mind and especially you can't read God's. The problem Calvinist have is they assume they know and they don't.

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

This verse proves what you claim to know about God from the beginning is just speculation.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

God said He is not partial (Rom 2:11-12) He claims that in fact He is not willing that ANY should perish (2Peter 3).

So you make a good point about God not using arbitrary selection to favor some and not others!

In Christ,

Bob

 

That isn't what I said.</font>[/QUOTE]That's why I asked. You admitted to being dumb (as we all are), and admitted to the fact that you can't hope to figure it out. So I merely asked if you then are willing to admit that Calvinism might be true, since you are admitting you can't really figure it out.

No I don't at all. I asked a question to find out what was in your mind.

We know what God knew before the foundation of hte world. He tells us that he knew everything. The question of this forum simply put is the basis on which he knew it. Did he know it because he decreed it, or did he know it by some other basis. We can boil the major part of this forum down to that simple question.

No one is trying to read your mind. Again, you should note that I asked you a question. I didn't make a statement. However, we do know what God's word said, and we are committed to that.

That's not really what that verse means, but that's another thread.

Next time, don't jump to conclusions. When you see a question mark, understand that it is a question, and answer it.

 

I have his book and highly recommend it.

I would like the following posters:

ILUVLIGHT, Gershom, Ray Berrian and Bob Ryan if they agree with the following quote from his book:

Answer "yes" or "no"

 

Gershom said: He only saves some because only some will believe.

No, I totally disagree with that thought! When He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world it was a sovereign choice due to nothing on our part but only His sovereign will!
Your view is an erroneous view of 'foreknowledge'. All that the Father gave to Him will come to Him!!
Blessings,

 

The same happened with the twins Jacob and Esau, Jacob he loved, but Esau he hated.

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls"

The same happens with everybody in Christ.

 

There is no statement in all of scripture showing that God ever said of the two twins (rather than the NATIONS of Israel and Edom) themselves -- that He loved one infant and hated the other.

It is only Calvinism that spins that as God arbitrarily selecting one infant to Love and another infant to hate.

Praise God that neither scripture nor the Arminian view of the Gospel endorse such a thing!!

 

Bob, I asked you for a "yes" or "no" to a simple question a 10 year old would be able to answer, yet you and others continue to avoid it. WHY?

The two nations began after Jacob and Esau were born, before their birth he had chosen Jacob and rejected Esau. Paul is clearly dealing with personal and not national election - he is not portraying the nation Israel over the nation Edom.

After Esau grew up he became known as Edom (Gen. 25:27-30).

After Jacob fled to Haran (Gen. 27:43) he married Leah and Rachel which require 14 years of working for Laban (29:14-30) and had four children by Leah (31-35) and four more kids by his concubines (30:5-12) and several years later God change Jacob's name to Israel (32:28).

There were no NATIONS of Edom or Israel when the twins were born.

 

Malachi 1:2 Was not Esau Jacob's brother? Says the Lord. Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated.

God reaffirmed His love to Israel by recalling His covenant choice of Jacob over Esau, father of the Edomites. God's electing love toward Israel, sovereign, undeserved and persistent (Rom 9:13)is boldly and explicitly reiterated by the Lord Himself and illustrated by His choice of Jacob and his offspring. Unconditionally, and completely apart from any consideration of human merit, God elected Jacob and his descendants to become His heirs of promise.
(footnote NKJV bible Mal 1:2)
The whole book of Obadiah concerns prophecy regarding the Edomites, Esau's decendants.

 

My post was specifically in response to the flaw in your argument about the infants Jacob and Esau.

As for your question - the answer is no.

Esau got 100% of the birthright "inheritance" and Jacob got ZERO! ALL of Abraham's wealth went to Isaac and ALL of Isaac's wealth was given to ESAU!!

"Details" about the infants seem to illude you.

The Spiritual birth right regarding the line for the Messiah is no more a sign of HATE for Esau then having JUDAH selected is a sign of HATE for Reuben!!

So your twist on Malachi 1 - trying to get it to apply to THE INFANTS is bogus! It fails exegesis.

You spin this because you want to bend Romans 9 on this point to show arbitrary selection "between two infants".

But your quote is from Malachi 1 WHICH IS dealing with the NATIONS -- are you still oblivious to this basic point of Exegesis?

Correct. And this statement "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" (which appeals to the PAST history of What God HAS DONE) is NEVER said in the entire book of Genesis to the infants OR to the parents of the infants!

The Arbitrary selection that Calvinism seeks here - is not in scripture at all!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Agreed. Malachi and Obadiah are dealing with NATIONAL HISTORY - they are not future predictions about arbitrary selection pronounced over two infants.

In Christ,

Bob