Featured Rain on the "Just" and "Unjust" ?

This is not true for the non elect (if your view is correct). In your view, all men are born sinners because God cursed Adam's descendants. God didn't have to do that (in fact it makes no sense that he did do that if he truly hates sin), but in your view he did.

Now (in your view) all men are born with a sin nature that compels them to sin. God knows this, and God could regenerate them and give them a new nature if he did not desire them to sin. But God chooses to pass over them and leave them with this sinful nature that compels them to sin.

So, you can say that God "says" he does not desire these non elect to sin, but reality says otherwise, as God chooses to let them remain sinners.

In fact, your view makes God into a liar, because if God truly desired that these non elect not sin as he repeatedly says in scripture, then he would regenerate them, God knowing that is the only possible way they can stop sinning.

 

I heard a Brother preach at our church this morning. He spoke about he having to go to a wake this evening, and then doing the funeral tomorrow of a young man who died of a drug overdose, and that it was going to be hard, seeing that the mother would be there. He then said he knew people who were drug addicts, and they stated they didn't like it, but they couldn't get off the drugs because they were addicted to it. I was a "sin addict", if you will, and there were times I tried to quit sinning by myself, but I couldn't do it all by myself, because I was hooked on sinning, and didn't want to let go of it. I didn't like where sin was going to eventually take me, but my love of it over rode it. That's when God came in and broke me lose from the "sin addiction", and set me free. He does for us that which we couldn't do.

 

So have you now stopped sinning? Congratulations

 

I'm talking about the "inner man". God changes the desires of the "inner man", and when the "fleshly man" riles itself up, the "inner man", through the workings of the Spirit, brings the "fleshly man" under subjection. That's what the bible refers to as the warfare we go through.

 

Well, a drug addict wasn't born that way, he chose to start taking drugs when he wasn't addicted and through habitual use became addicted. I would argue that men learn to and become addicted to all sin the same way, but I doubt you would listen.

You may look at porn, but you weren't born with a Hustler in your hand. You may smoke, but you weren't born with a Marlboro in your mouth. You may drink, but you weren't born with a Budweiser in your hand etc...

Now, you keep practicing sin and you will become addicted to it. Nobody is born an adulterer, but once you cheat on your wife, the next time it gets a little easier. Nobody is born a thief, but when you take that $10 out of the cash register, next time it is a little easier. This is how sin works.

Jesus did not say we sin because we are enslaved to sin, he said the exact opposite, that the person who sins becomes a servant or slave to sin.

Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Jesus said whosoever commits (not born) sin is the servant or slave of sin.

Paul said the exact same thing.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Paul doesn't say here that you were a servant of sin and therefore are compelled to sin. No, he says that to whom ye "yield" (showing choice) yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are "to whom ye obey".

The order here is of utmost importance. Calvinism teaches the exact reverse of scripture. Calvinism teaches that you are born a servant of sin and are compelled to sin.

Scripture teaches the exact opposite, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey.

If you were a slave to sin, it is because you willingly chose to sin in the first place. You were not forced or compelled to sin.

 

My friends, let us not act as if we are savages! As Baptists, we have certain liberties in worshop & beliefs ....many that Thank God, have transferred into our very constitution.

:tonofbricks:If we cannot tolerate others opinions (as odious as they may sometimes appear) than we are no better than some of these narrow minded other forums that appear to ban you for having differences of opinion....& if that is the case gentlemen I myself would have been banned long ago. Lets just lighten up a bit shall we! :thumbs:

 

I could really care less one way or the other, just wanted to point it out so that everyone would know who they were really talking to. He can keep rambling on for all I care. The Mods will do what they feel is best, maybe they already know, maybe its already been pointed out somewhere and I just missed it??

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

What I said is true in my view. And I'm assuming that you don't believe God could stop people from sinning. I'm assuming you believe God is powerless over sin.

 

It says that God loves the world in John 3:16.

When I witness, I just given them the gospel.

 

God could stop anyone from sinning by immediately killing them.

What I am saying is that if God truly desired the non elect to stop sinning as he says hundreds of times in the scriptures, then he could easily regenerate them and give them a new nature. God KNOWS (in your view) that as unregenerate natural men that they cannot possibly stop sinning any other way.

This makes God appear to be a liar (in your view). He says he desires them to stop sinning, but he does not enable them to stop sinning. Therefore his greatest desire must be that they continue sinning.

Isn't this true?

 

And I rest my case!

No Calvinist believes that John 3:16 applies to all. In fact, Calvinists such as James White have devoted entire segments to just that verse alone in an attempt to prove it does not mean that God loves all.

Now I agree with you about John 3:16, but I'm not a Calvinist. But for any person that claims to be a Calvinist and uses John 3:16 to show that God loves all, when such a view is not supported by their theology is blatantly dishonest. The only way you can escape that dishonestly is if you are not really a Calvinist, or you do not know Calvinist thought as well as you thought.

 

Unless you don't believe God has the power to stop people from sinning in your view...

And it wouldn't make God to be a liar at all. As we all do, there can be more than one thing God desires. He could have made all people and never give anyone the ability to sin(which would mean he would get His desire for us to obey him) but He chose to allow man to sin.

No, his greatest desire would not be "they continue to sin" but that he would allow man to sin.

 

I don't always see eye to eye with Calvinist. I get my theology from the Bible which means that there will be times that even though I would agree with someone much of the time, there may be times I disagree. The Calvinist theology doesn't "not support" that. You have to realize that there are many Calvinist(just like there are many baptist). I don't ever claim to be a "Calvinist" for this reason. People see the word "Calvinist" and assume what I believe. So I don't ever make a "Calvinist" claim. The closest I ever say is that I'm "calvinistic" in my Soteriology.

however, it still doesn't negate my previous point. If God actively predestined people to hell, that person would still go to hell because he deserves Hell. I don't hold to double predestination. I believe men are headed to hell because they are sinners and God chooses to save some. In a sense, there's a passive predestination to hell, but this is not outside of the fact that they deserve hell, just as I deserve hell. God no offering salvation to someone doesn't change that they deserve hell, nor does it show a lack of love of God.

 

God will not go against His own will.I see everyone having a free agency or they would all be doing the will of God and not responsible for their own actions.

See the angels and man rebelled so they must have a free agency, you cannot rebel unless you have one.

We as Jesus being our example must say not my will but your will be done.

God calls commands all men to repent every where, why are they not all repenting, because they have a free agency.

We have been created in a world with two things that our constant God and change. To say we can't change is not what our universe teaches.

Since God never changes we must change not Him. The only security we have and the greatest message to hear in a changing world is God never changes.

 

Anybody else find it odd that the guy who said Calvinists don't believe sinners must repent is lecturing others about dishonesty?

 

Calvinist's don't believe that. Repentance by definition is a VOLITIONAL act of the will. In Calvinist thought, God must GIVE you repentance and dictates your response which is irresistible. That's not repentance. Calvinism does not teach that man can change his mind and voluntarily turn to Christ in repentance. The Calvinist view of "repentance" is no different than the universalist explanation of salvation with a different audience. Although universalism has everyone being saved, and Calvinism only the elect, both camps of theology hold that God saves the individual apart from any act of the will. Thus even though the recipients are different, the soteriological system is the same. The Calvinist view of repentance is not a Biblical one.

 

Another question to ask is does God Himself have libertarian free will or compatibilist free will! For the Calvinist to claim that there is no such thing as libertarian free will, they have to maintain that God created the universe out of necessity which makes God dependent on creation. In the Calvinist system, evil is necessary for God to get glory because in Calvinism, God is glorified in the predetermined punishment of sin and evil when He selects a target to damn to eternal torment.

Thus Calvinism is more of a theistic pantheism or panentheistic world view because God is dependent on creation to demonstrate His sovereignty.

 

It depends on the context!

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

In other words, perhaps God will change their minds/hearts so that they will believe the truth.

God is doing this, not man.

 

It does negate your point because you are not addressing the issue head on. You are side-stepping by making an argument for what man deserves which has nothing to do with what God wants and desires. Deserving focuses on the state of man's being sinful unless of course you agree with the Calvinists that God wanted man to be sinful, at that point you can then make your argument because you have effectively determined that deserving punishment and sin itself are the same. Not only that, but you would also have to claim that God's desires and wants are expressed in what man deserves, and the deserving itself becomes an equal attribute of God.

Now unless you are willing to say the to deserve is one of God's attributes, you need to separate what man deserves from what God wants and desires. Just because man deserves eternal punishment does not mean God wanted it that way. I can spank my child and punish my child for their sin, that doesn't mean that I WANTED to do it, even though my child deserved to be spanked. You are continuously confusing the 2 issues.

For God's love to DEPEND on punishing sin because of what man deserves means that God was never fully God before creation. Such a view forces God to depend on the existence of what deserves just punishment in order to demonstrate the attributes and sovereignty of God thereby making God dependent on His creation. The Calvinist put so much emphasis on the sovereignty of God and the need for it to be proven by God Himself, that they forget that God has existed from eternity past as a self-reliant Being wherein all 3 members of the Trinity were loving each other before anything was ever created for God to be sovereign over.

Thus God created because He WANTED to create, and because He COULD create. Yes, of course God knew ahead of time that man would sin, but in creating free moral agency in man, God can rightfully proclaim that even though sin deserved punishment, the sinner can not blame God because God presented a bona fide offer of salvation to all. However, if man though deserving of punishment, is so punished because God determined before the world began that certain would be predestined to hell, then God did so because He WANTED and DESIRED the damnation of a sinner, before that person was even created to BE a sinner. That is a ludicrous view of God that defies His nature to the core.