Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

The signs are signs of real truths.

Jesus taught 2 resurrections, the first being conversion, & the second at the last hour for eternal judgment.

Luke 15:31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours.32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. ​

Paul taught conversion as a resurrection -

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.​

Now read Rev. 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

Notice that John sees the souls .... of martyrs & witnesses. Their souls are alive & reign with Christ. That is precisely the situation for dead believers - for us & all in the present Gospel age - when & however we die.

Notice also they live & reign as priests. Back to Rev. 1

5 ...... To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

As Peter taught -

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.​

I suggest Peter was aware of millennial/golden age type teaching, even of John's Revelation visions when he wrote:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.​

Peter clearly rejected the teaching of a future millennium after Jesus returns. The present indefinite thousand years indicates his longsuffering towards us.

As Jesus said in his Olivet sermon -

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

 

So the "first resurrection" of Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

is the one you call "conversion" ("Jesus taught 2 resurrections, the first being conversion")?

Also I dont agree that Peter rejects the 1000 year millennium, where are his words which say "I reject a future millennium after Jesus returns"?

Finally if you believe 'the first resurrection" of revelation 20:5 as literal then why not believe "the thousand years" as literal?


HankD

 

Of course.

 

Actually, they deny the second coming as future, to them already happened!

 

That is a ridiculous teaching. I don't know any that teach that.
We did have a pastor many years ago who said during the holidays at bible college, they used to go 'bible trekking with a handcart and stay in various churches and preach in them. Once one of the team preached on the second coming and afterwards one of the congregation said "I have never heard that before." the preacher answered "Doesn't you pastor believe in the second coming?" one who overheard said "That man doesn't believe in the first coming." Sad isn't it?

 

There are some who who deny second coming is future, that there will be a physical resurrection, as its now all spiritual, and even see Communion as not done, as the Lord had already come in AD 70!

 

David, It's true - full preterism holds that ALL scripture is fulfilled including the Second Coming:

Experimental Theology: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

HankD

 

No, a SPIRITUAL temple can't be measured, nor occupied, except by the owner's soul & the Holy Spirit.

And the Orthodox Jews fully intend to build a new temple & resume the old system of sacrifices, etc. They're even breeding the animals to use in their ceremonies. But I fully agree it'll be in absolute rejection of Jesus as Messiah, something they do anyway.

And it'll be in this temple that the "man of sin" will commit the "abomination of desolation'.

 

And COMMON SENSE shows that doctrine is false.

 

They can plan all they want. When I was under futurist teaching in the late 1960s we were told authoratively thst the Jews had a temple ready to erect, They are taking heir time.

The temple that the man of sin sits in is the Church. The church is not the temple of God, there will never be another called by that name.

• 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
• 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
• 2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

Robycop said on the closed forum
There's been a long line of popes, while the "beast" will be only one man. No other man can defeat the "beast", but the popes were defeated many times. Napoleon imprisoned one pope at Avignon. The popes kept largely silent while Hitler & Mussolini were in power. And NO pope has ever entered a temple in Jerusalem, nor had a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy.

That old one and here is the old answer.
All of Daniels kings were dynasties, the little horn that came out of the last beast was the papacy, Four kingdoms in all. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, Rome will continue till the saints, the 5th kingdom, take the kingdom. The papacy is the current king of the last worldly kingdom, Rome, under which we now live.

 

Hitler an Mussolini were the Pope's tools. Mussolini gave the Pope the Vatican city in 1926 after he had lost all his possessions in 1870, when the French troops defending Rome withdrew to defend Paris from the Prussians. Victor Emmanuel became king of all Italy and the Pope skulked in his only possession, his palace. Till that time he had ruled most of Italy as a worldly king. Hitler signed a concordat with the Pope that lasted throughout the war, Mussolini and Hitler were both good Catholics. Why would he not be silent? The Vatican's man in the Hitler administration was von Pappen, who would have been tried as a war criminal had not the pope intervened on his behalf. von Pappen was then made the papal chamberlain soon after. Hitler based his SS on the Jesuits, who both controlled their underlings as having to obey all orders from their leaders without question.

It may be interesting to note that Stalin was a Catholic who studied at a RC seminary in Jordan, but was a professional atheist.

 

I don't know how I wrote that.
I should have said

It may be interesting to note that Stalin was a Catholic who studied at a RC seminary in Georgia, but was a professional atheist.

A senior moment I suppose.

 

NEWP!

A pope might be the 'beast's' deputy, but not the main 'beast' himself. And the RCC does NOT have nearly the power it had some 500 years ago.

 

{LOL} No prob!

The boy Adolf Hitler considered becoming a RCC priest, but soon abandoned that idea in his teens. While he vbelieved in God, he warred against all churches, especially the RCC. (He had some tolerance for JWs & Moslems.) He truly fit the Scriptural description of "having a form of godliness, but denying the POWER of it".

Also, Hitler & several of his cronies were involved with the occult & with Nostradamus' prophecies.

And many people, especially SDAs, thought he was the 'beast' cuz he had come from "nowhere", was virtually unstoppable for awhile, and was given his final boost to power by the catholic Reichstag delegates who passed the "Enabling Act", making his almost-absolute power legal.

Hitler lied to the pope more than once. OTOH, Mussolini didn't dare oppose the pope too much, given the overwhelming catholicity of Italy The pope was rightfully afraid of Hitler.