Featured Rapture questions

1 Cor 15 is the resurrection at the 2nd coming,

1Thess 4 is the resurrection at the 2nd coming.

Rev 20:4-6 is the FIRST resurrection and it happens at the Rev 19 second coming.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus reminds Peter that the wicked can not go where He is going - but then assures Peter that HE will be going there.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]that setup in John 13 to the John 14 fact that ALL agree to -- which is that Christ WENT to heaven - is "key" because Christ had just stated that WHERE he was going - His followers would ALSO go "later".[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John 14[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In my Father's house are many mansions:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"I Go to prepare a place for you, and if I go I will come again and receive you to Myself so that where I am there you may be also[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The saints WILL be WHERE Jesus went.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Our citizenship is in heaven - Phil 3:20[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Our hope is in heaven. Col 1:5[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]We seek a heavenly city Heb 11[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]We will be "brought to His heavenly kingdom" 2Tim 4:18[/FONT]

 

It really doesn't matter. What matters is the context. The "last trump" of 1Cor.15:52 is the same trump as 1Thes.4:16. It is called "last" because it signifies the end of this present age. There are other trumpets that will follow--seven of them. There is also the trumpet that will sound forth when the two witness arise up into heaven in Revelation 11. All of these occur after the trumpet call of 1Cor.15:52.

Indeed it will. But that doesn't mean everyone will hear it.
The entire episode will take place "in the twinkling of an eye." How quick is that? It is doubtful that any unsaved person will see or hear anything.

Yes it will. This is a heavenly scene.

And your point is?? It is the context that is important. It is not the last judgment, but signifies greater judgments yet to come.

1Cor.15:50-52 as is 1Thes.4:14-18 are indeed speaking about a pre-trib rapture, and that cannot be denied. Why would you say otherwise. It is the first resurrection when we are given our resurrection bodies. According to 1John 3:1-3 they are bodies as Christ has. He entered into heaven with a body and we shall also. Is that too hard to comprehend?
The world will then be judged, as God's wrath will be poured out against it for a seven year period called The Tribulation. At the end of it Christ shall come for the Jews. They as a nation shall turn to their Messiah and accept Him. Then the one thousand year Millennial Kingdom shall begin, after which the devil and the false prophet shall be cast into the Lake of Fire, and the Great White Throne Judgement shall take place.

 

The First Resurrection is not the first resurrection in sequence.

What is the First Commandment, Bob.


God bless.

 

The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to the rapture. The "Day of the Lord" always referred to that time period which included the tribulation and then the coming of Christ. The Second Coming is in two phases: His Coming (the rapture), and the Second Advent when he comes to put down the enemies of Israel and redeems them. At that time he will also set up the Millennial Kingdom. These two themes are constantly referred to in the OT. They are promises given to the Jews. The rapture is a promise given to NT believers. There is a big difference between these two promises and two events, and who they are for.

 

The Rapture

According to the doctrine of the rapture, all believers, alive and dead, will be glorified and raised: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:16-17). Depending on the person's beliefs, the Rapture will take place before, during, of after the "tribulation", a period of great tumult and Christian persecution (2 Thess. 2:1-4).

The problem with the pre-tribulation and mid-tribulation theories (in which all believers will be taken from the Earth, while the unbelievers remain to be destroyed) is that they are contradicted by the Scriptures: "But in those days after that tribulation the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in the clouds' with great power and glory, and then he will send out the angels and gather (his) elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of the sky" (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 2:1-12). The passages used in defense of these positions (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52) say nothing about the tribulation.

The correct interpretation of 1 Thessalonians is that, after the reign of Antichrist, all people will be taken, but Paul's intention was to stress that the living would have no advantage in the resurrection over the dead–they would all go to live with the Lord forever (Rev 20:17-21:27).

Fundmentalists also cite Matthew: "Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming" (Matt. 24:40-42). This does not imply a rapture, but rather, states the fact that between any two people, one may be saved (taken) while the other may be unsaved (left). The fact is, this is apocalyptic language, and should not be taken literally.

 

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
--Not here. It is speaking of "the Coming of the Lord."
The Day of the Lord is not mentioned in these verses.
These verses are a time of comfort, not a time of dread and darkness:

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

Says who? And with what authority?

 

DHK, Jesus when He only gave His Authority to His Apostles { Luke 10:16 }. Jesus formed His church on His Apostles/ Successors. { Matt.16: 16-18,Matt.28:18-20 } Who else in the Bible received Christ's Authority to carry on with His ministry for all generations. { John 20: 21 }
Jesus formed His church completely different from non-Catholic churches { John 17; 20-21 }

St. Paul calls the church "Christ" { 1 Cor.12: 12 }

Jesus Himself identifies with His church and call's it " me". { Acts 9: 4 }

That first church formed on His apostles Jesus made sure that His "real"
Apostolic church [ s ] would always be united in doctrinal teaching , not as man-made future churches. { Eph.4: 3-6 }

Notice the small { s } in shepherd found in { Ezechiel 34: 23 }

The Keys given to Peter { Matt.16: 18-19 }

Only to Peter does Jesus command him to feed Christ's lambs and sheep; [ not once but three times. { John 21: 15-17 }

Jesus formed His Apostolic Teaching church first , the church later gave us the Written completed Word of God so that by Teaching His Apostles first there would be a church that would have the correct understanding of the Bible, but, man messed it all up and decided that the bible needs to be confusing as found in all non- "real Apostolic Churches - { 2 Peter 1: 20, 2 Peter 3: 16 }

Not one verse in the Bible about God given any man or woman the Authority to form future churches totally different from His.

 

Your Catholic sources have proven to be wrong, and have proven to be wrong from the inspired pages of the Bible itself. From using the Bible alone, we can prove that either Peter was never in Rome, or that the most he could have been in Rome was just one year, enough time for him to die as a martyr. Thus the entire foundation of the RCC falls. It is based on one big lie.
In reality its founder is not Peter, not Christ, but as true history shows its founder is Constantine.

No. Paul, in this context, calls the church at Corinth a body of Christ that has many members. Every local church has many members, each with their own gifts and abilities. The letter was written to the church at Corinth, not to the RCC. Think about it!
1Co 12:12 For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ.
--Nowhere in this verse does he call "The Church" "Christ". You have stated a falsehood.

Is this another falsehood. What does the verse really say?
Act 9:4 and falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?
--He is speaking to Saul. Why do you persecute me? It says nothing of the "church."
In fact, soon after Saul got saved what is the testimony of Scripture?
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
--It was the churches that had rest, not "The Church," of which there is no such thing.

Yes, I taught you that. It was formed on Jesus and ALL of his apostles, not just Peter. It is also called "an assembly."

That is right. And thus our church is to this day--not part of a man-made church, not part of a denomination, but independent of all other churches, totally autonomous, following the precepts and distinctives laid down in the NT. But the RCC cannot say that, can they?

a non sequitor.

The keys were given to all the apostles. You simply haven't read far enough. They are distinctly defined in Matthew 23 as the keys of knowledge which the Pharisees locked the common person out of heaven. IOW the "keys" are now the gospel, which every believer has. I have the "keys." Do you?

That is not true.
The command to "feed the sheep" is given to every believer.
We see it given to the Ephesian elders here:
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Peter himself tells his readers:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
--It is a command, part of the duty of Christian discipleship.

That is a real unsubstantiated indictment.
If you want to know "who really messed it up." Read history.
Heresy entered in through the ECF (early Christian Fathers)--those who you claim to be the bishops, the forerunners, the founders, etc. of the RCC. That is who messed up.
Today, it is churches like ours who preach true and pure doctrine because we do have all 66 books of the Bible, inspired of God, and refuse to use fairy tales such as "Bel and the Dragon," and other such spurious books. We preach the truth, the truth that the RCC has never known.
Look at yourself. You are not able to carry on a debate and defend yourself with the Word of God. In this post you must quote from the Catechism. That isn't "your belief" but what the Catechism says. You can't defend yourself from the Scripture, or express your own beliefs. I don't believe you have a proper understanding of the gospel to this day.

Paul went on 3 missionary journeys and established over 100 churches.
Every epistle he wrote was written to either a local church or a pastor of a local church.

To Timothy he wrote:
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
--He said: Timothy take these things that I have taught you (about the Word, about planting churches, etc.), and teach them to faithful men. Then make sure that those faithful men will teach other faithful men, who in turn will teach other faithful men, who in turn will teach other faithful men, who in turn will teach other faithful men, etc.
--They didn't need the seal of approval from any of the other apostles such as Peter.

Let me give you a challenge. Take Paul's advice to Timothy, and figure it out mathematically.
If one person, say Darrell C (who has been posting here), were to win just one person to the Lord. Then as Paul says, teach that one person faithfully in one month. Then the two of them go and win two others the next month and faithfully teach them. Then there will be four. Then the four of them go and teach four others, then they will go...

How many months will it take for them to reach the world?
Do the math.

The principle of 2Tim.2:2 is called "spiritual reproduction."

 

Your Catholic sources have proven to be wrong, and have proven to be wrong from the inspired pages of the Bible itself. From using the Bible alone, we can prove that either Peter was never in Rome, or that the most he could have been in Rome was just one year, enough time for him to die as a martyr. Thus the entire foundation of the RCC falls. It is based on one big lie.
In reality its founder is not Peter, not Christ, but as true history shows its founder is Constantine.

MY ANSWER_ I'll try and make it a little easier for you and others to understand. Peter din not have to be in Rome for the duration of him being the first pope ,but we do know that he died there and that in the Catacombs of those first early martyrs [ something that your author Fox never mentions in his book of martyrs ] Peter is mentioned as being buried in Rome with his name through-out the catacombs .of course both secular and Jewish/ Christian scientists attest to Peter's bones being buried in Rome along with writings of Peter choosing to be crucified upside down in Rome.




Quote:
St. Paul calls the church "Christ" { 1 Cor.12: 12 }


1Co 12:12 For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ.
--Nowhere in this verse does he call "The Church" "Christ". You have stated a falsehood.


MY ANSWER: You are incorrect, Jesus never, never wants disunity with doctrinal teaching in His Church.Jesus wants all of His churches to be Apostolic and All teaching the same Doctrinal Teaching as described from { Eph.4: 3-6 }{ John 17: 20-21 } { Jesus only taught His Apostles the "Fullness of the Christian Faith " { Luke 10: 16 } you can say what you think it says but I will read it as it says.


Quote:
Jesus Himself identifies with His church and call's it " me". { Acts 9: 4 }

Is this another falsehood. What does the verse really say?
Act 9:4 and falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?
--He is speaking to Saul. Why do you persecute me? It says nothing of the "church."
In fact, soon after Saul got saved what is the testimony of Scripture?
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.



My ANSWER: you contradict yourself you say that it is the members that make up the church { which is correct } You do understand that Jesus never was personally persecuted by Saul/ Paul. Saul only persecuted those people that made up the church that Jesus was the Chief Shepherd over. The members make up the church and that is who Saul/Paul was persecuting; Christ's church. My church or "me".




Yes, I taught you that. It was formed on Jesus and ALL of his apostles, not just Peter. It is also called "an assembly."


MY ANSWER: Wrong, the Bible clearly tells us that Peter was in charge of feeding the "sheep' and it was Peter that performed the miracles after receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and on and on about Peter, Peter was given much more clout than any other apostles, the checking of Peter by one or two of the others was not about doctrinal teaching, it was about dietary law and a little toe-stepping on the other bishops of their regions[ bishops are in charge of their region ] but Peter and his successors are in charge of Christ's universal apostolic church. Peter was the one who gave the first "doctrinal teaching ' it was on the circumcision issue. Only Peter had the authority to bind and loose on doctrinal teaching, because he was chosen by our Lord to that position.



Quote:
Apostolic church [ s ] would always be united in doctrinal teaching , not as man-made future churches. { Eph.4: 3-6 }

That is right. And thus our church is to this day--not part of a man-made church, not part of a denomination, but independent of all other churches


MY ANSWER Sorry wrong. If your church was not of a man-made decision then whence is it from ? His church is of Apostolic Traditional Teaching, your's is not. It is definitely not from any Apostolic decision, so it is without a doubt most definitely from a man made decision.

Quote:
Notice the small { s } in shepherd found in { Ezechiel 34: 23 }

a non sequitor.



MY ANSWER, OK, I'll give you that one.



Quote:
The Keys given to Peter { Matt.16: 18-19 }

The keys were given to all the apostles. You simply haven't read far enough. They are distinctly defined in Matthew 23 as the keys of knowledge which the Pharisees locked the common person out of heaven. IOW the "keys" are now the gospel, which every believer has. I have the "keys." Do you?


MY ANSWER, Wrong, You do not understand ISA. 22: 22 nor REV 1: 18

Quote:
Only to Peter does Jesus command him to feed Christ's lambs and sheep; [ not once but three times. { John 21: 15-17 }

That is not true.
The command to "feed the sheep" is given to every believer.
We see it given to the Ephesian elders here:
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Peter himself tells his readers:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
--It is a command, part of the duty of Christian discipleship.



MY ANSWER: Only Peter alone was given that particular position of in charge of all of Christ's earthly shepherds, including the other apostles for they were also sheep. Only to Peter alone did Jesus ask three times ; " Peter do you love me ".


Quote:
Jesus formed His Apostolic Teaching church first , the church later gave us the Written completed Word of God so that by Teaching His Apostles first there would be a church that would have the correct understanding of the Bible, but, man messed it all up and decided that the bible needs to be confusing as found in all non- "real Apostolic Churches - { 2 Peter 1: 20, 2 Peter 3: 16 }

That is a real unsubstantiated indictment.
If you want to know "who really messed it up." Read history.
Heresy entered in through the ECF (early Christian Fathers)--those who you claim to be the bishops, the forerunners, the founders, etc. of the RCC. That is who messed up.



MY ANSWER: Our Lord only gave us His apostolic church not a different church the authority to make the rules, as per Bible. God made it and God made free-will to mankind to do whatever he/she wants, including inventing churches different than His, but that really doesn't make it the correct thing to do. Wolves came in trying to devour and they were brought down by His apostolic clergy and the "soldiers of Christ". History shows that a new breed of wolf invaded the church in the 16th Century and established itself, not inside the church but outside the church.


Look at yourself. You are not able to carry on a debate and defend yourself with the Word of God. In this post you must quote from the Catechism. That isn't "your belief" but what the Catechism says. You can't defend yourself from the Scripture, or express your own beliefs. I don't believe you have a proper understanding of the gospel to this day.


MY ANSWER: I can't carry on a debate in a manner that you would like, because I am trying to defend a church formed by God while your trying to defend a church formed by man. Like I said before, it's all about interpretation. When you begin to use the same interpretation as used by the early Christians guided by the Holy Spirit to compile the Canonical List of Books, that you and I accept, then you would understand, for an example, the reason why the Lord left us a teaching church first and then the Bible after His Apostolic Church was firmly established.



My ANSWER: The rest of your post I somewhat agree with, with one exception, in that you do not realize that all those other churches were all under the same umbrella of Apostolic Teachings. All had the very same doctrinal teaching, with maybe a few different disciplines, depending on hardship, geographical regions, availability of ordained clergy etc. To answer your statement about Peter Jesus used the Talmudic teaching system while He was with us on Earth Jesus was of course the Chief Shepherd [ and still is ] but when He went to heaven He made Peter in charge of His apostles and they their ordained successors. Jesus is the "Good Shepherd" He would never leave His flock of tangible sheep without a tangible earthly shepherd. "hallelujah"



DHK, you also wrote: The principle of 2Tim.2:2 is called "spiritual reproduction."



DHK, ONE MORE THING, where in the Bible are the words "spiritual reproduction." I only bring this to your attention because you always ask me "where in the Bible does it say that ".

 

And in Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect".

And of course it is already too late to imagine that the saints have not already by this late date suffered great tribulation by the 10's of millions -- century after century.


"Another reason" that the secret rapture does not work - is that in Rev 20:4-6 at the start of the 1000 years, at the point of the Rev 19:11-20:4 second coming is when we have the "FIRST resurrection" according to the text and this is when the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" according to 1Thess 4 - also at the 2nd coming.

1 Peter 1:13 says to "Fix your hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

and 1Tim 4:1-8 - Paul says it is this event - at the "Appearing" of Christ that the saints fix their entire focus.

BTW -- I am very much indeed a "fundamentalist" as you say.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. But the Catholics claim that he was in Rome, not only in Rome, but the Bishop/Pope of Rome for 25 years. He was there for no longer than one year, and then probably as a prisoner. As you said--crucified upside down. That is not something you do while ruling as papal see. lol.
2. Just because his bones were there is not evidence that he was there, as some evidence points to the fact that they were moved from his original burial place. I think you know that. Nevertheless, I don't dispute that he was there--it is the length of time, and what he was doing when he was there--dying as a prisoner, awaiting execution; not ruling as a bishop.
This makes all the RCC claims as suspect. If they lie here, how many other things have they lied about?

I am not incorrect. You cannot ignore context. Who was Paul writing to. It was not the RCC. It was to the Church at Corinth--not you!
Certainly Paul was addressing the problem of unity in the Corinthian church. But not all the churches had that problem. Read the other epistles. Does Paul address that same problem in the other epistles? No.
This was a problem that the church at Corinth had, and it was a big problem in their church. One can read how it affected them in almost every chapter.
Read chapter 3, for example. Some followed Paul; some Peter; Some Apollos, etc. They were divided. The verse is specific to the church at Corinth.

The use of context is important. This body of Christ that you talk about, presumably referring to the RCC.
Do you also have a problem here:
1 Corinthians 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
--Yeah, I think so--carried away with dumb idols. Sounds like the RCC. Right?

It is like this: A description of your "Mass."
1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. (Is that right?)

And now just a couple verses later:
1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
--Here he calls the RCC communion service the cup of devils or demons, and the table of devils or demons. That is the truth of Scripture, Lakeside!
But without you knowing context you are lost.

 

Yes I do. Only Christ has the key of life and death:
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
--If you think that anyone in the RCC has access to those keys you are badly deceived.
Again, Isa.22 is totally irrelevant. The RCC thinks that it is, but they also are deceived.
Here is the relevant verse:
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Here is another translation which gives a better sense:

(WNT) "But alas for you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you lock the door of the Kingdom of the Heavens against men; you yourselves do not enter, nor do you allow those to enter who are seeking to do so.
--The sense of "shut up the Kingdom" is given better here: "lock up the door of the kingdom." That is what it meant. They had the key of knowledge, and it is as if they threw it away. They were not going to heaven because of their unbelief and they weren't going to tell others the way.
--Jesus came and told the multitudes the way--through Christ.
The apostles expanded on that message--the gospel.
The gospel message is the key to heaven.

That is irrelevant. Peter also fled at the cross. Peter was the only one that denied the Lord three times. Peter was the only one rebuked by Paul. Peter was not at the cross when John was. So what!

1. There is no "Apostolic Church." Paul left "churches, not "A Church."
2. There was no "one authority," every church was autonomous.
3. The wolf came in the clothing of the RCC when it started with its founder, Constantine who introduced paganism.
4. The Reformation tried to bring back a semblance of truth, but by that time it was too late. There was just too much corruption, both morally and doctrinally in the RCC. Of course, it has been corrupt from its inception. Thus those who tried to reform it from within had to separate from it, and they became protesters or Protestants. But Baptists (or those believing like them) have been protesting against the doctrines of the RCC ever since its origin.

The RCC was invented by Constantine, a man. So get off your high horse.
The church I attend is independent and autonomous. It follows the precepts and distinctives of the churches of the NT. Its foundation is the Bible, and its head is Christ. Therefore it is Biblical while yours is not.
It is God that gave us the books of the Bible. The RCC had nothing to do with it. In fact some of the MSS that make up our Bible were being burned by Catholic monks. And then there was the famous burning of William Tyndale's translation of the Bible (a translation which is foundational to the KJV). The RCC got their hands on as many of them as possible and burned them. They even purchased them just to burn them. The RCC HATES THE WORD OF GOD!!!

The only "same umbrella" was the "faith" or eventually the books of the Bible that were handed down to them. They were separate churches, not a denomination.

Jesus never used "the Talmudic teaching system."
Whatever would possess you to say that?
The Bible says about his teaching: "No man ever taught as this man did."
"He teaches as one having authority, and not as the scribes."
"And they were amazed at his teaching."
--The teaching of Christ was from God. He is deity. He was God in the flesh. He did not follow man's system. He taught absolute truths from God Himself for He was and is God.
Peter was not in charge as you think. Remember, Jesus gave John charge of Mary, not Peter. He gave Peter some specific duties and that is all.

Jesus had 12 apostles, and by the day of Pentecost they had increased to 120, so your entire point is moot.

It is a principle taught in the Bible from 2Tim.2:2.
Did you bother to do the math. If you did you could see where the reproduction came from.
"Christology" is not a word found in the Bible either. Do you know what it means? Do you believe in it?
It means "a study of Christ." Do you believe we should study Christ from the scriptures?