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Rapture = Second Coming?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ed Edwards, Dec 2, 2004.

  1. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Ed and Trailblazer,

    The issue is not whether or not we can tolerate THE tribulation. If God sent the Church through THE trib He would also give the grace to endure. A TRUE SAINT, A TRUE BELIEVER would still be eternally secure in Christ, no matter what happened during that time period.

    The issue is “what saith the Scripture”. And there, I fully agree with Ed that we are “kept from the hour” and “not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation” (Rev 3:10; 1Thes 5:9). The whole context of the 1Thes 5 quote was intended to bring “comfort” in that we will “live together with Him” rather than face God’s wrath that is coming upon the earthdwellers. Of course this passage immediately follows the one of the clearest “rapture” passages in the NT – 1Thes 4:13-18.

    Ed,

    I am new to the board, has someone already presented a detailed argument for the pre-trib position and is this just collateral discussion? Or, is this the presentation of the pre-trib position? If it is here already, where is it?

    What is the HCSB?
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You overlooked what
    i said: "There are then ... "
    Immediately after the tribulation,
    there are THEN no saved Gentiles and
    no saved Jews. If a Gentile gets saved
    or if a Jew gets saved, then they will
    be a Tribulation saint. Revelation 20:4b
    speaks of got-their-head-chopped-off
    tribulation saints. I beleive that the
    gentile tribulation saints will all be
    stillborn: their first confession that
    "Jesus is Lord" will cause their demise
    at the hand of antichrist's forces.
    Thus, IMHO there are no living gentile
    saved persons in the tribulation period.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You said nothing about tribulation Saints in the post I referenced. Actually I thought that all Saints were tribulation Saints since Jesus Christ told us in John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
     
  3. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    rjprince,

    I think this was Ed's post.

    " Personally i don't see how you can tolerate a God who has committed you to go through the tribulation where you will likely fail and condemn you to eternal hell fires when you do. My God has set me up for success. I'll not go through the tribulation period and if i did and if i fail i'll be forgiven and succeed
    anyway."

    I was trying to make two point on that statement:

    1) that Ed (an a lot of other pre-tribbers) are going to be mighty disappointed if they suddenly realized they're in the tribulation period, and

    2) that we don't tell God what we're going to tolerate or what we're going TO DO or NOT do.

    P.S. And my reference to "10 minutes into eternity was meant to refer to the time period beginning immediately after the pre-tribbers belief of the rapture event which is not my belief. Certainly "eternity" for me personally began at the moment of conception.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Church mouse guy: "Jacob ain't the only one, however, to have trouble.
    Christian is going to have trouble too.
    Better head for the hills or wherever you hide. Jacob will go to Petra."

    I hear the hills in the USofA are still booked up from
    the Y2K thingie :( No Gentile Christians will be around
    to "have trouble".

    2 Thessalonians 1:6 (HCSB):
    since it is righteous for God to repay
    with affliction those who afflict you,
     
  5. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    tblazer,

    Yep, knew it was Ed's. Your points are well taken, from your perspective.

    Did not see a response to my references though. And no one has responded to my earlier observations that I believe to be quite foundational.

    I repeat myself, humbly.

    "Funny that Paul always tells the church to look for the Lord, not the Tribulation. Funny that after the Cross there are no more warnings like the ones in Matt 24 and Luke 21. Funny to me anyway, if the church was to go through THE tribulation. Kinda goes back to that old Church/Israel thing again, don't it? I think it do.

    All goes back to contextual literal grammatical historical interpretation of Scripture, too."

    Sorry, should have capitalized THE TRIBULATION to distinguish from general tribulation that all believers who live godly in Christ Jesus will experience.
     
  6. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Where do all the Tribulation saints come from?

    They are spiritually dead people left behind after the rapture who will be blessed with eternal life through martyrdom.

    Jesus said "the kingdom of God is within you" (Lk.17:21).

    Mt. 8:6 and Lk. 9:60 Jesus told his disciples to "let the dead bury their own dead."

    Physically dead people cannot bury dead people. What Jesus meant is let the spiritually dead people without the kingdom in them bury their own physically dead relatives. Got that?

    At the beginning of the Trib people will be commanded to worship the beast and to take the mark on their forehead or on the hand. From this point on the dead Trib saints will be blessed with eternal life when martyred. Now you know from Mt. and Lk. above that its impossible for dead people to be martyred. What is meant is "spiritually dead" saints will die in the Lord. Exactly what happens in Rev. 14:13 where it says "Blessed are the (spiritually) dead who die in the Lord from now on" (from the command to take the mark).

    Raptured saints who have the kingdom of the Holy Spirit in them will leave behind spiritually dead people who die in the Lord. If they are spiritually dead they do not belong to the Church that was previously raptured.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Rjprince:
    I am new to the board, has someone already presented a detailed argument for the pre-trib position and is this just collateral discussion? Or, is this the presentation of the pre-trib position? If it is here already, where is it?"

    A search on "pre-trib" in the text shows 20 topics
    in the last 6-7 months. I've been posting about the pre-tribulation
    rapture/resurreciton since i got kicked off of
    Rapture Ready a year ago. The topics stay here about 6-7
    months before they disappear into the archives.

    Rjprince: "What is the HCSB?"

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (Holman, 2003)

    OldRegular: "Actually I thought that all Saints were
    tribulation Saints since Jesus Christ told us in
    John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you,
    that in me ye might have peace. In the world
    ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer;
    I have overcome the world."

    Tee hee. You need to remember that "tribulation" is measured
    in tears and "Tribulation Period" is measured in two
    each 3½-year periods.

    BTW, please share the version of Bible verses that you quote
    in each scripture quoted. Unless noted otherwise
    i will assume you quoted this from the 21st Century King
    James version (21KJ).
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a [b/spiritually dead saint[/b].
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Nonsence! :rolleyes:
     
  10. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    Correct, how about spiritually dead people who become saints and die in the Lord? Immediately after the rapture all people are spiritually dead or else they would of participated in the rapture.
     
  11. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Ed,

    I will always use the KJV (1769) unless otherwise noted. Sometimes I get carried away and give my own translation of a Greek word or phrase, though.

    Anti-pretribbers,

    Is no one going to notice this one:
    "Funny that Paul always tells the church to look for the Lord, not the Tribulation. Funny that after the Cross there are no more warnings like the ones in Matt 24 and Luke 21. Funny to me anyway, if the church was to go through THE tribulation. Kinda goes back to that old Church/Israel thing again, don't it? I think it do.
     
  12. prophecynut

    prophecynut New Member

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    I notice and agree. Paul teachings, beginning with Acts, are void of any instructions concerning the Trib. In Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, before the Church began there are instruction that perfectly match those events described in Rev. Earthly judgments are not in the context of those Scriptures related to the Church, but are in Scriptures related to Israel and the unbeliever. Keep up the good fight [​IMG] .
     
  13. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    p-nut,
    Thanks. I knew my posts were showing up on my computer.


    Ed,

    WOW! Kicked of a board! I have not achieved such notariety to date. Did recently leave a KJVO board where every discussion deteriorated to a KJV vs the modern perversions issue. Made a few friends and will pray for them as the Lord reminds me, but for the most part it kinda feels like taking a rock out of your shoe...

    You know it is gone and it feels sooooo goooood!

    I am sure most of them feel the same way. Maybe I just did not hang around long enough to get blocked off. Got tired of casting my pearls, so to speak...
     
  14. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    rjprince ,
    rjprince, I notice that you did not use Mark 13:24-27 where Christ (referring to verses 14-23) says:
    You make several points;
    1) "That Paul always tells the church to look for the Lord....
    2) "...that Paul does not tell the church to look for the tribulation." 3) "that after the Cross there are no more warnings like the ones in Matt 24 and Luke 21 (and Mark 13)

    All of the above points can be answered for yourself in the verses you left out -&gt; Mark 13 -&gt; -&gt; AFTER THAT TRIBULATION period that He had just gotten through warning them about in verses 14-23! Christ Himself is telling us all that we will go through the tribulation FIRST! Immediately after verse 24, he tells us what the next two events are.

    1)"...AND THEN we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds."
    he tells us the last event for us Christians is this:
    2) "...AND THEN He will send out the angels and gather the elect from (everywhere)" - obviously the resurrection.

    Therefore, if Christ was telling us the truth, the entire period after the Cross and up until He appears in the clouds is the tribulation period for the elect. After the Cross, the NT writers began to write about what the last days would be like as the end got closer and closer and how we would expect to see things like they were in the days of Noah and Lot. Check out Luke 17. There He tells us to go back and use those two examples as pictures. Three times in Luke 17 He emphasizes that Second Coming, and the Resurrection will be ON THE SAME DAY! "but on the day (v29)...on the day(v30)...on that day(v31)

    Now, it is my understanding that when Christ repeats something 3 times - we are to take very, very special note of it.
     
  15. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    rjprince,

    I forgot to respond to this point:

    1) "...Paul always tells the church to look for the Lord, not the Tribulation."

    Now, if you are IN it, do you not need to know that there will be a DAY at some point in the future when it will end? You got that part right- Paul encouraged us that there was hope.
     
  16. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Sorry, did not mean to neglect the second synoptic in my response. Mark gives less detail than either Matthew or Luke so I usually spend most of my time there. However, the passage you pointed out is not addressed to New Testament believers, it is addressed to the Jewish nation. The three questions related to the destruction of the Temple, the end of the age, and the second coming of Jesus. He does come at the end of THE tribulation. No argument here on that.

    Re the gathering of the elect from the four winds, compare all three synoptics with Deut 30:1-5. This is the return of the Jews to the Land. This is when they say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.” This is when the Jews look upon the One Whom they pierced. Jesus died for our sins, yes. But it was the Jews who had Him nailed to the cross.

    You interpolated into the passages incorrectly and without basis. You quoted the passage, "...AND THEN we will see the Son of man coming in the clouds." – he tells us the last event for us Christians is this:” Notice that you had to change a word in the text to make it fit your argument – it does not say WE will see, it says THEY will see! No textual variation there to support your translation, if it was indeed a translation. Then you say, “the last event for us Christians”... There were no Christians yet. There were only OT saints who believed in God on the basis of what had been revealed to that point. Jesus had not died yet. There was no church. The Olivet Discourse focuses on Israel not the Church. Or do you mix those up as well?

    Second quote from Mark – “gather the elect” – obviously the resurrection, you say. Not if you understand the Land (sometimes called Palestinian) Covenant. Not if you compare with Matthew and Luke. Not if you compare with Deut 30.

    Its amazing how much you can get out of a passage if you first project your theology onto the text.

    You said, “After the Cross, the NT writers began to write about what the last days would be like as the end got closer and closer and how we would expect to see things like they were in the days of Noah and Lot. Check out Luke 17.” Sorry, NOT AFTER THE CROSS, but IN THE OD. That was my point. Did you think I would not notice or let that slide. THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT!!! You find words like that Pre-Cross to the Jews, even to the eleven. YOU DO NOT FIND WORDS LIKE THAT IN PAUL (or Peter, or John)!!!

    You said, “Three times in Luke 17 He emphasizes that Second Coming, and the Resurrection will be ON THE SAME DAY! "but on the day (v29)...on the day(v30)...on that day(v31)”

    That’s funny, no, not really very funny at all. Nothing humorous about imposing your theology on top of a passage to force your point. GUESS WHAT? Not only does the word “resurrection” not occur in between all those “that days” but the concept is not there either! Your contention does not stand. Did you even look up the passage, or were you so determined in your theology that it did not matter?

    Sorry, nothing in any of these passages presents any difficulty at all for my interpretation. On the other hand, you must add words to the text to get your theology to fit there.

    None of what you wrote in any way responds in substance to my post.

    Your Second post: The reason the Jews will be in it is that they have rejected their Messiah. They will not see Him again till they mourn for His return. Further, they can fix his return based on the only SPECIFIC sign in the OD, the Abomination of Desolation that coincides with the breaking of the treaty. Jesus returns to Earth in power and glory to deliver the Jews at the close of the Tribulation. He does not return for His saints at that time, HE RETURNS TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES IN FULL BATTLE DRESS!!! Which for Him is white raiment and a sword going out of His mouth to smite the nations that have come against Israel.

    Paul encouraged us that there was hope, but not the hope of enduring THE tribulation as you suggest. It is a mistake to apply the word “elect” in the OD to the Church or to NT believers. Further, if the Lord comes at an hour we think not, there is no way it can be a post-trib rapture. That could be precisely dated from the abomination.

    Sorry, got a little carried away and some of my wording is a bit strong, no offense intended, just making my point with intensity.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but there is no such thing as a spiritually dead Saint which is what "prophecynut" stated: :D

    " What is meant is "spiritually dead" saints will die in the Lord. Exactly what happens in Rev. 14:13 where it says "Blessed are the (spiritually) dead who die in the Lord from now on" (from the command to take the mark)."
     
  18. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    OldReg,

    I understand your statement, but not sure I see your point, other than that pnut was wrong is his statement.
     
  19. trailblazer

    trailblazer New Member

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    rjprince,

    I learned a valuable lesson some time ago when witnessing to a Jehovah's Witness that you just can't get past the indoctrination that is drummed into them so much that if they have been told by their elders that trees are blue they will look you straight in the eye and tell you with absolute conviction that trees really are blue!

    John Nelson Darby has painted the landscape in such a manner that entire forest of dispensationalism is so dense with blue trees that only a bare ray of light is shining through.
    May you find that light out of the forest of blue trees.

    Take my post and compare the more learned scholars' comments on Mark 13 and the "elect."
    If you have it, see: 'The Gospel of Mark' by William Hendriksen. See also in 'The New Bible Commentary:Revised' by EErdmans
     
  20. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

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    Have a few by Hendricksen. Do not have NBC Rev.

    DID NOTICE A COMPLETE LACK OF SUBSTANTIAL RESPONSE TO THE MANY SPECIFICS OF MY POST!

    Wait, that is probably because I have been indoctrinated by J.N. Darby as thoroughly as a JW!

    Labels, labels, labels. Sure beats substance. That is, if you do not have anything of substance to offer.

    Have read Covenant Theologians and Amils pretty heavily, lets deal with some issues at a more substantial level than the blue trees you just offered.

    I also repeat something I said earlier (maybe on another thread) -- the Reformers may have rejected the soteriology of the RCC, but they took Augustine's allegorial eschatology hook, line, and sinker.
     
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