Featured Rapture - The Poll

You see what I mean you still do not know what you are talking about.
MB

 

I'm curious of why you went back to this posting from the 12 since you already replied to it once? Doesn't matter.

Your original position was that the the rapture was not the "coming of Christ" because His feet never touch the ground. So while this passage doesn't mention Jesus actually setting foot on earth it is implied in verse 15 when it says His "coming". Parousia is the word used here and that word is never used in scripture for anything except a physical return (as someone from a trip) and specifically the second coming of Christ to judge and reign.
From Thayer's Lexicon:
Parousia - the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

I agree that there is more than one resurrection - the righteous dead before the millennium at the rapture and the unrighteous dead at the end of the millennium. There are not two gathers of believers though. That is nowhere in scripture.

I honestly don't know how you came to think that. I have made no such "discovery". the only thing I've discovered is your immense pride and unwillingness to consider a different position than what you've been spoon-fed.

I never denied that Christ would return with His saints. In the post-tribulation thread I specifically laid out how a return for and with the saints can be one post-tribulation event. You just chose to ignore it.

What I bolded above is particularly amusing since in actuality I only read from the KJV (for convenience). I will often go to other translations online to see what other men of God have rendered the scripture but that isn't in any way a bad thing and actually consistent with the intention of the KJV translators.

And frankly who cares if that isn't to your taste? What's that got to do with anything?
And what that proves is that I actually intend to get the full understanding of what the scripture says, not picking and choosing.

Never said or thought that. I go to Bible translators, dictionaries, and commentary precisely because I don't know as much as those men. Stop building strawmen to attack. focus on the issue at hand. Unless you'd rather admit you can't defend your position and that's why you'd rather slander me.

What part of "joke" didn't you follow?

I've already showed you several. Why should you change if I show you again? But because you asked nicely:
Matthew 24:29-31
Mark 13:24-27
Luke 21:25-28
1 Corinthians 15:23
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

Do you have any scripture that plainly states the rapture is before the tribulation? Anything that has no possible alternative interpretation?

:BangHead:

 

I use thayers as well although I do not take it as absolute as I do scripture. Verse 15 does not imply that this is the coming quite the contrary;

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


The dead rise first. This is what this verse is about. It has nothing to do with any implication of His feet touching the mountain top. This is the first resurrection and gathering of His Saints. After the Judgement of the churches the churches are no longer mentioned. The reason for that is because they are in Heaven being wedded to Christ. The tribulation is not only about the wrath of God but the rule of Satan and his persecution of the people who do not worship him.

I'm sorry your disappointed that I will not waver to your position. That's the way it is. You haven't shown me anything that I have seen or heard many times. I will never accept a post trib position simply because there is nothing in scripture that will change my position. Many post tribers like you have tried and still haven't shown anything clear about it. The whole doctrine is actually based on one verse.
1st Cor 15:52

I read it I just am not convinced of it

The KJV translaters are long dead and just for your information there were no Alexandrian text available at the time.

You will never do that using multiple versions. They are all different and only one is an actual translation. The rest are the thoughts of men about what the Greek actually says. Known as dynamic translations or thought for thought. The KJV is a formal translation, Meaning a more word for word translation.

:laugh: Your being funny again. Your problem is you don't like my position anymore than I like yours. I don't pay much attention to the sayings of men apart from scripture. I literally rely on scripture for my faith, men have a tendency to be wrong. Take for instance of your trying to get me to believe that Saints are really Angles. Honest translation just isn't done the way you do it. There is actually a reason for Saints being there because it is what was meant. The word Angles was not meant. No matter how much you want to change it.

I would have laughed but Calvinist use the same statement to describe how they got saved.

This describes the second resurrection and gathering of the elect. These are Jews and is why they are called the elect. Gentiles are chosen.

The same as Mat 24

the same thing

No post trib here

no post trib.

The revealing of the anti Christ which this passage describes is the beginning of the tribulation.
Do you have any scripture that plainly states the rapture is before the tribulation? Anything that has no possible alternative interpretation?



:BangHead:[/QUOTE]
Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
This pictures Christians today being sealed.

Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Notice it's the children of Israel. I'm a Gentile and a child of God but not of Israel. The only ones saved out of the tribulation are the 144000.

There absolutely no proof this is the church because if it were they would not be called children of Israel.

The fact that the church is not mentioned any longer in Revelations after the warnings to the 7 churches.

The fact that Christ comes in the clouds at the beginning of the book Of Revelations.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

With out these two things happening the rapture can't happen and they happen before the trib begins.

MB

 

Uh how does it not refer to the coming of Christ? It specifically says "The coming of the Lord"!

Why are you so caught up (see what i did there? :smilewinkgrin on Christ's feet touching the ground? Just because a passage doesn't say His feet touch the ground that has no bearing on whether or not it is the Second Coming. Revelation 19 doesn't make any mention of Jesus' feet touching the ground. You have not given any evidence at all that there is even a distinct period of time called the tribulation, let alone that the church won't be there. The word church not being used in parts of Revelation proves nothing. The word "Israel" is only used once during the part of Revelation that you believe is this "Tribulation period." Does that prove that Israel is only a bit player? According to your method of interpretation it should. How about since the book of Esther never mentions God? Is God not there? That argument is frankly stupid.

If you really think the whole doctrine of the post-tribulation rapture is based off that verse then you really haven't paid attention.

Because it doesn't fit your theological system that you are imposing on the scripture.

I know... so?

Are you KJVO? Your claim that only the KJV is a formal translation is easily disproved, but why bother, you'll ignore it just like everything else I've said.

That being said, I read only the KJV and love that old Bible. It's a great translation and in my opinion the most accurate. But it isn't perfect. Only the originals were.

I do not understand why you are so hung up on this one issue. Again if you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it really means believers, so what? It's still consistent with historic premillennialism. I think this is the only verse that you have any hope of argument and that's why you keep trying to press it, and I agree with that. I'm not trying to say that it is for certain angels. I said it could be.

No they don't. Non-Cals use that to pejoratively talk about Calvinist doctrine. Stop building straw-men. it doesn't help your shrinking credibility.

Do you understand what the word elect means? It means chosen! The church is called the elect of God. Col 3:12. What that means regarding soteriology is another conversation so lets not get into that.

And how many resurrections do you think there are? There is the first resurrection at the rapture and the second after the tribulation. That's even standard in dispensationalism.

The fact is that here and in the the parallel accounts of the Olivet Discourse Jesus is talking to Jews yes, but those Jews are followers of Christ, they are the proto-church if you will. These are believers and this discourse is given to believers as a guide for understanding what would happen starting in 70AD going to the Second Advent.

Yep.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ~ 1 Corinthians 15:23
The resurrection of those that are Christ's (Believers in other words) are at His parousia - His visible presence, coming. What's the next verse say? Then cometh the end! Not a pre-trib rapture, but a gathering of Christ's people right before the end.

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.~ 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul says "to you who are troubled" or you who are being persecuted (suffering tribulation) rest with us, because the Lord will be revealed from Heaven and take vengeance on those that do not obey the gospel (those who are doing the persecuting) And When is this? When He shall come to be glorified in his saints! Meaning that He has not been with those saints until this time! Clearly this isn't a return to judge with the church! This is Christ coming to judge and rescue the church!

 

Sorry ran out of room on the last post...

I agree, but when is the day of redemption?
Luke 21:27-28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The day of redemption is when Jesus returns in power and great glory after the tribulation.

Really? So noone but Jews are saved during this so called tribulation period? Then explain this:
Revelation 7:6 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

You said yourself that you think this great multitude is the 144,000. So how can they only be Jews if they are from all nations, kindreds (families/tribes), people, and tongues? And again, why is the list of tribes wrong? Here i will quote George Ladd:

The word "church" isn't used. So what? proves nothing. Israel is only used once (but in reality that is referring to the church anyway), yet you think this period of time revolves around them...

Never says that is the rapture. Not once. It is just a quick explanation of what the rest of the book/visions are about. The Coming of the Lord in power and glory!

Paul plainly says that the gathering together occurs at the coming of our Lord (2 Thess 2:1). So when does Christ come according to 2 Thess 2? After the man of sin is revealed and destroyed by the brightness of His coming! 2 Thess 2:8. The wicked one is destroyed at the coming of the Lord and that is when the gathering occurs. Again, clearly post-trib

 

Bosley;
Let's just agree that we disagree and let it go. I've grown tired of discussing what I'm never going to convince you of. Certainly you will never convince me of your view either.
MB

 

I suppose we can agree to drop the discussion.