Featured Ravi Zacharius on Sovereignty

If men were not free there would be no sin in the world at all because, everything would be good in the eyes of God. Your view makes God responsible for sin because, there is sin in the world. If determinism is true then it must be God's will. We all know sin is not God's will. For what purpose would there be sin in the world. If all things work together for good to them that love God. Sin hurts everyone even those that Love God. There is nothing good about hurting over the loss of your child.

Just take the theater shooting in Aurora Colorado for instance. If God predetermined that, why are there Christian Parents who are grieving over there losses. Didn't they Love God enough? for God to turn the death of their loved ones to good?

No one can prove determinism. The theory of it exist only in those who believe in it.
MB

 

I don't think that is a legitimate question.

A better question is "Why CAN'T God punish someone for a sin he ordained that they commit?"

Why CAN'T God do that?

You see, the only response to that, imo, is: That would make God evil.

The answer to that response is, "By whose standard? Yours?? Who judges God? Since when do YOU get to define right and wrong, good and evil and how tremendously presumptuous is it of you to think that God has to abide by your own standards."

Do you see? It is not a legitimate question. Why COULDN'T God do this?

Who said it does?

It only matters to the one making the choice because he will be held accountable for it even though he makes the very choice God always intended for him to make.

We respond, "But how could God do that?"

The answer- without difficulty.

 

Good answer.:thumbsup:

 

Absolutely ridiculous reasoning! Why can't He? Because "all of God's ways judgment in TRUTH"!!! You rely on reasoning such as God do anything - such as not be Truth. Or that God can be both: Truth and not Truth...

Do you stick out your foot as your kids walk by and trip them onto their faces and then tell them its their fault for not looking good enough? Oh wait! Maybe a bad example...Seems to me you've said something like that before. By your standard of judgment and truth your kids are responsible for you tripping them... RIDICULOUS!

 

Your question makes God a lover of sin if God could ever make anyone sin against Him.

My God is a righteous God this is why.

wouldn't God be evil if he made some one sin. The more I read of your post the more I'm convinced, that it's possible we don't worship the same God.

No one Judges God but instead I judge your false doctrines. Which I think you make up as you go along.

More nonsense!

Men sin because they want to not because God made them do it. Why not be a man and accept the responsibility for your own wrong doing in stead of blaming God for it.
MB

 

And how does anything I said violate that??

Right, and??

 

Prov 16:1-4 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

2All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.

3Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil

 

No it doesn't.

I don't love to work out but I do it because it serves a purpose that I do love- health.

God does not have to love sin to love the benefit of destroying it and saving sinners.

Without sin there is no praise to Christ forever for dying to save sinners.

Without sin there IS NO SUCH THING as grace- none.

I don't think that is true- I just think you don't know Him very well- that's all.

You judge God for making a world in which he knew extraordinary amounts of evil would take place.

You judge God for destroying sinners for doing what it is their born nature to do.

You judge God.

I do not.

God made them in a world in which he knew they would be born sinners who WANT to sin.

You act like your theology doesn't lead to the same conclusions but the fact is that you just don't like the conclusions.

You don't care if they are true or not.

 

Proverbs 16:4 was the verse 12 years and 10 months ago that started me on my path to conversion from a dyed in the wool Arminian to a thorough Calvinist.

I remember it well because it was my Bible reading the morning after my marriage. I told my new wife, "Look at this verse! This is a mighty God indeed! He is so in control of everything that even the wicked are but pawns in his hands that he moves howsoever he chooses!"

Then I went to my first full time ministry at a Free Will Baptist church. But the seed was planted and the conversion had begun.

 

...A-N-D, If you cannot logically reason for truth AND maintain that reasoning philosophically to to BE TRUE ...you have reached theological fatalism! THAT happens when all you can do is produce T+F=T to support your sorry claims.

God IS Truth. If you can't maintain truth you can't reason for your belief in God why He is truth. OH wait, I'm talking to a Determinist - that God is the truth just appears magically in your mind without reason, eh?

If you'd listened to me and taken a class liked in basic logic and critical thinking skills like I'd suggested you wouldn't be so confused that you would have to ask me why it important to maintain truth "logically" (BTW, not your brand of logic , ...philospohically speaking)

 

I've not contended anything that is both true and not true at the same time.

When you say stuff like this not only does it make you look like an idiot, but it also robs you of any credibility when you attack people for attacking people. If you are going to be nasty- fine. I don't care. But how silly you would look from henceforth if you decided to reprimand nastiness!

It also reveals that you cannot stand toe to toe in a debate so you have to resort to insulting your opponent because that is all you are able to do.

I understand. I used to be an Arminian. I know what it is to have my rump handed to me time and time again by those who debate with a consistent, biblical theology.

I know why you have to do it. I can empathize.

 

You most certainly have, starting with - "responsibility"!!!

Poor Luke, whoda ever known that Idda been able to hurt your non-aggressive sensitive feelers in a debate...I'm sorry :tear:

:laugh: Boy, I'd punk you SO BAD in toe to toe face to to face in a paneled debate with judges that you'd be crawling off the stage. :tongue3:

Only thing you're consistent in is fatalistic theology...

The empathy is mutual my trash talking friend...

 

I believe men are responsible.

I also believe men do what it is their nature to do.

God holds them responsible for doing what it is their nature to do.

There is nothing in that that is illogical.

Now, if you could just convince yourself of that, there would be one person in the world who believes it.

It is not fate that controls everything- it is God.

 

Get a clue about logic and critical thinking skills luke! Because it looks to me that You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

Yes it does

We differ hear as well I can't hardly stand it if I have nothing to work at. I'm always busy and I love it that way.

God has to love sin to make man do it with out their willingness.

Satan has been whispering that in your ear.

No with out God there is no such thing as Grace. Sin is not the creator of Grace, God is.

Of course you know Him better than anyone.

God is my judge. You blame God for your sin.

That's really funny since you're the one who says God determines sin.

No one is a sinner until they sin.

You lie when the truth would fit the best.
MB

 

Oh my, I am "feeling" the empathy.

 

TREMENDOUS ARGUMENT!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

And you flee.. as expected.

 

No it doesn't, and I proved why. You just ignored it.

Don't pull your shoulder out of joint patting yourself on the back, ok?

He doesn't HAVE to MAKE them do it BECAUSE they are willing.

They were born willing.

They were born willing into a world God made in which he KNEW they would be born willing.

That is true whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist.

Your theology has the same exact problems you accuse Calvinism of having.

I know, I know... you are NOT Arminian. Then whatever your nameless theology is which is practically identical to Arminianism- it has the same problems.

What are you... a snake handler?

How weird, backwards and childish!


It is a fact. There is no praise for dying to save sinners if there never was any sin!

How can anyone whose brain is strong enough to tell his heart to beat deny THAT?!?!

There is no saving grace if there are no people who need to be saved by grace!

I can't believe I have to tell you this!

No. I just don't question him.

He reveals himself in his word as utterly sovereign one who makes all things for himself, even the WICKED for the day of judgment. I accept it instead of trying to make a different God in my own mind to suit me.

That is what I think you are doing.

You don't like a God who ordained everything that comes to pass so you make one to suit you.

Right?

In this religion you made up to suit you maybe. It is not true in biblical Christianity.

In biblical Christianity people sin BECAUSE they are sinners.

Adultery, murder, etc... is in the heart long before it is done with the hands.

That is what this thing we affectionately call the BIBLE teaches.

And you say this because you cannot argue otherwise. The truth still remains:

You act like your theology doesn't lead to the same conclusions but the fact is that you just don't like the conclusions.

You don't care if they are true or not.

 

Pro_14:17 He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.
Pro_22:24 Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Pro_29:22 An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression.

I wish you peace
MB