Featured Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture

Just like Psalm 51:5, as you say. You disagree that it teaches the depravity of man because you don't believe in the depravity of man. It can't teach the depravity of man no matter how clear the teaching is. Why? You don't believe in the depravity of man. Of course!

The truth is, that he might be spot on with the majority of these Scriptures. But you will give a blanket denial simply because you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. You won't even give them a second thought. Your mind is made up. You are right and everyone else is wrong. You haven't changed a whit.

 

They do not have any Scripture that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church; not a single one.

 

I wish you would quit ignoring me, you seem to be ignoring me in post after post of yours.

 

Yes, I disagree that it is even addressing the depravity of man. That is not the subject of Psalm 51. Psalm 51 is a Psalm of repentance for David after he sinned with Bathsheba.

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Is this Psalm a doctrinal lesson on the depravity of man? NO, it is David expression his sorrow and guilt for sin he had committed.

And verse 5 is describing his mother, not David. Men do not conceive, only women conceive. David is saying that his mother was committing some sort of sin when he was conceived, although we do not know exactly HOW she was sinning, there are many possibilities.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is a type of Hebrew poetry (I have read) where both sides of a verse are saying the same thing. The first phrase says I was shapen in iniquity, which is a little difficult to understand. The second phrase is far easier to understand, David says that "in sin" did his mother conceive him. She was doing something wrong when David was conceived.

We know several things from scripture that might hint at what this sin was. We know that David did not look like his brothers, who were tall and handsome. Does that suggest a different father from his brothers? Perhaps. Many a man has raised a son that was not his biological child. Happens all the time.

We know Jesse was ashamed of David, when Samuel requested to see all of Jesse's sons, TWICE Jesse refused to present David. The other 7 sons were all invited to the feast, while David was left keeping the sheep. Only when Samuel persisted did Jesse present David. This indicates that Jesse was ashamed of David for some reason.

We will never know exactly what David means in Psalm 51:5, but it is definitely not speaking or teaching that all men are born sinners.

Romans 5:12 is a much better proof text for Original Sin. This verse DOES speak of all men and says that DEATH (not a sin nature) passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED.

Augustine used a known flawed Latin text of Romans 5:12 that said "in whom all have sinned" that he ASSUMED was speaking of Adam. The vast majority of Greek scholars openly admit the original Greek does not give his understanding, but is saying death passed on all men because all men have committed PERSONAL sin. But folks continue to hold to the error of Augustine for 1500 years now.

I believed in Pre-Trib most of my life because that is what I was taught. But I was always troubled with Matthew 24:21 because it directly says AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Unlike you and many others, I go by what the Bible says, not some "scholar". So called scholars have been leading Christians astray from the beginning.

No, I can read, and Jesus said he would come AFTER the tribulation of those days.

Now, if you can show me scripture that says he will come before the tribulation, I will be happy to read it. And if you can prove that is what the Bible is teaching, I will believe it.

Prove your case.

 

Revelation 7:14 KJV
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

If we look at tribulation here in scripture, I see it has those down through the ages that have died in the faith of Jesus Christ. Seems the church has been in tribulation for years.

 

That verse has nothing to do with the pre-trib rapture. The Church at Philadelphia no longer exists. If you are assuming that the Church at Philadelphia represents faithful Christians I would simply suggest you read the history of the persecution of Christians by Rome.

Philip Schaff in his History of the Christian Church [8 volumes] describes this persecution of the Church, as follows [Volume II, page 36]:

The first severe persecution of the Church by the Roman Empire occurred under the emperor Nero in 64 AD. Nero blamed the destruction of Rome by fire on the Christians, apparently to divert suspicion from himself. To paraphrase Schaff, A vast multitude of Christians was killed; some were crucified, some were killed by wild animals, and some were covered with pitch and burned as torches for the amusement of the mob. Thus began the first major persecution of the Church by Rome. Persecution of the Church continued under Domitian [81-96 AD] and Trajan [98-117 AD] and intermittently until the time of Constantine. The most severe persecution of the Church began under the reign of Diocletian in 303 AD and lasted until 311 AD.[22]

In his History of the Christian Church, Schaff poignantly describes the persecution of the Church and the results of that persecution, as follows [Volume II, page 32]:

The most severe persecution of the Church began under the reign of Diocletian in 303 AD and lasted until 311 AD [History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff, Volume II, Chapter 2]. Schaff [Volume 2, page 68] describes one particular act of persecution under Diocletian in which one can readily see the fulfillment of John’s prophecy regarding those who do not wear the mark of the beast [Revelation 13:17], as follows:

 

OK, here is the problem, the day of wrath is not necessarily the tribulation. If you go to Revelations 6, you will read of the tribulation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is the tribulation, this is believers being killed for the Word of God, for believing in Jesus. But this is not the day of wrath, that comes later.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

As Matthew 24 said, immediately AFTER the tribulation is when the sun will darken, the moon will become as blood, and the stars will fall. This is when Jesus returns and takes out the saints.

It is NOW that the day of wrath occurs.

So, do not confuse the tribulation with the day of wrath, they are not the same. Christians will be killed during the tribulation as Jesus said in Matthew 24;

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This is the tribulation, when Christians will be hated for Jesus's sake, and will be rounded up and killed, just as Revelation 6 shows.

But this is not the day of wrath, that happens AFTERWARD.

 

Exactly. The "great tribulation" is when Christians will be rounded up and killed for Jesus's sake.

But this is not the day of wrath, that occurs afterward. This is when the sun darkens, the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall. This is when Jesus will return and take the saints out. It is THEN that the "day of wrath" occurs. Christians will not have to go through the day of wrath.

Don't confuse the "great tribulation" with the "day of wrath". They are not the same.

 

Jesus Christ does deliver us from the wrath of God on unbelievers in the final judgment. If you are saying that Jesus Christ delivers His Saints from persecution from the world i would simply say to you: Read the history of the church, particularly the slaughter of dissenters from the Roman Catholic Church. There was a period during the "Dark Ages" when the RCC did to dissenters what Radical Islam is doing to the Christians in the Middle East.

Says who?

This passage proves my point. The wrath Paul is speaking of is the wrath that God executes on unbelievers in the final judgment!

This passage proves my point. The wrath Paul is speaking of is the wrath that God executes on unbelievers in the final judgment!

Jesus Christ provides answer to your discussion in the following Scripture.

Luke 13:1-5
1. There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

It all depends on what you mean by wrath. Christians are delivered from the wrath of God in judgment and that is the promise of Scripture. Scripture never promises that we will be delivered from the wrath of the unbeliever.

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 15:18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

First there is no record that Enoch was delivered from anything other than death. The Scripture seems to indicate he was translated but that could be debated. As for Noah; surely you are not arguing that Noah and his family were the only believers in God at the time of the flood. That is utter nonsense. Scripture simply says:

Genesis 6:8. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Scripture teaches and history shows that the people of God will always be persecuted by the world.

Furthermore, when God judges this country for the slaughter of 55 million unborn children, and I believe He will and may be doing so now, do you believe that the Christians who live in this country will be spared. I believe that God intervened in WWII to enable the United States which had no real military strength to defeat the two strongest military forces in the world at that time. Do you believe the Christians in Germany and Japan were spared the destruction brought on by the bombing of Germany and Japan.

 

You are correct! The people of God have always been persecuted throughout time and that is the truth. Christians in this country have not endured much persecution but that is changing!

 

Israel still has one week left to fulfill (a "week" of years).
Until the Body of Christ is removed, Israel's "clock" cannot start up again.

In the Gospels, Jesus wasn't talking to you (the Body of Christ), he was talking to his kinsmen.
Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles (the Body of Christ).

 

yes....none of his verses come near any rapture ,:thumbs::wavey:

 

Your understanding of Scripture leaves much to be desired.
Tribulation has been happening ever since the time of Christ. All the apostles except for John were martyred. The first century Christians were persecuted with great intensity, and before Saul was saved he himself was a murderer and sought to exterminate the Christians. According to your definition that would have been the Great Tribulation.

Or maybe the Great Tribulation was during the reign of Innocent III when he rounded up all the Albigenses and exterminated them--complete genocide. That is the Great Tribulation by your definition.

Or perhaps we are in the Great Tribulation now. Have you been reading the news. Do you know why Obama has ordered military strikes in Iraq??

Christians are being beheaded, crucified, their homes burnt down, their churches destroyed, etc.

Are we in the Great Tribulation today Winman??
Your view doesn't make sense.



Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

--True believers suffer (are persecuted) for His name's sake. That is the will of God for all Christians.

Those events will happen after the rapture and before His Second Coming, that is, during The Tribulation. Why do you think the sun will be red? Any guesses?
Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

That depends on the context of "the day of wrath."
But since you don't have a clue what the Great Tribulation is, you wouldn't know, would you?

 

Did you get your dispensationalism from Scripture or from an author. I believe it was an author since Scripture knows nothing about Dispensational doctrine including the pre-trib removal of the Church.

Furthermore, I cited Scripture showing that the verses you presented prove nothing about a pre-trib removal of the Church.

 

What a useless thread. You could have written and showed scripture that supports a Pre-Trib rapture. If you can show it, I will consider it.

In the scriptures you always see the persecution of Christians, and then afterward the day of wrath when Jesus comes.

Matthew 24:

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

First Christians shall be rounded up and killed for Jesus's sake. The gospel will be preached in all the world. Yes, this has been happening for 2000 years. But it will intensify.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The great tribulation shall be far worse, it will be the worst time since the beginning of the world or ever shall be. But look, Christians are still in the world and being killed. In fact, Jesus said this great tribulation will be shortened for the "elect's sake". This tribulation shall be shortened so that not all believers shall be killed off.

Has Jesus come yet? NOPE. That happens AFTER this great tribulation.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It seems absolutely clear, it is AFTER the great tribulation that Jesus returns.

And who do the angels gather up? The ELECT! So believers are still in the world, they have not been raptured out yet.

Verse 29 descibes both when Jesus comes and raptures out the elect, and when the "day of wrath" begins. It is true, Christians will not go through this "day of wrath". But the day of wrath is not the same as the tribulation or the great tribulation.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Here is the sun being darkened, the moon turning to blood, and the stars falling as was described in Matthew 24:29. This is when Jesus returns with his angels and gathers the elect.

It is now that the great day of God's wrath begins.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

See, all those verses the Evangelist showed all concerned the "day of wrath", not the tribulation. The day of wrath begins AFTER the tribulation when Jesus returns with his angels to take the elect out. Then the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood, and the stars will fall. Then will begin the "day of wrath".

Christians will not go through the "day of wrath".

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Israel's clock stopped when they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus the Messiah! That was clearly demonstrated by the destruction of the Temple in 70AD!

That contradicts what your Apostle Paul said:

2Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Romans 15:4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

There is only one Gospel, the Gospel that Jesus Christ taught. Paul as did the other Apostles preached that Gospel of Jesus Christ! Anyone teaching another so-called gospel is teaching heresy.

Many of the Apostles, except perhaps James the brother of John who was killed by Herod and of course Judas, preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles; and that includes Peter. The Biblical record is silent about most of the Apostles and the historical record is incomplete but it is certain that many of the Apostles preached to the Gentiles.