T
TexasSky
Guest
I'm curious now about how our reactions to drinking are affected by the people we have known in life.
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dale kesterson
New Member
TexasSky, your last question was a bit suggestive. To ask if Christians "should" drink is as if we are encouraging it. The question would be better if it was "is it okay" for Christians to drink.
Just a thought
Just a thought
Question # 3 was worded inaccurately.
It should read as three parts.
A. Is drinking a problem for you?
B. Are you now an alcoholic?
C. Are you a recovered alcoholic?
Contrary to popular opinion, there is no such thing as a "recovering" alcoholic. You either have recovered or you have not. Either you no longer drink or you still drink. There is no in between. "Recovering" implies it is a process, which it is NOT.
Either Christ delivers completely or He does not. No such thing as half way.
Just my .02 cents.
In HIS service;
Jim
It should read as three parts.
A. Is drinking a problem for you?
B. Are you now an alcoholic?
C. Are you a recovered alcoholic?
Contrary to popular opinion, there is no such thing as a "recovering" alcoholic. You either have recovered or you have not. Either you no longer drink or you still drink. There is no in between. "Recovering" implies it is a process, which it is NOT.
Either Christ delivers completely or He does not. No such thing as half way.
Just my .02 cents.
In HIS service;
Jim
Go ahead and drink. Drink until you fall off your stool.
What do I care? I've got my own walk with Christ to be accountable for.
I'm sorry. I know this is awfully sarcastic - even for me! - but, really, how many "Should Christians drink" threads do we have here now?
100? 200? 300?
They all end up the same.
One group says, "it's not a sin. Get off my case."
The other says, "it's a sin and you're an awful person for doing it".
Somebody else will say that it was wine. Then, another person will counter by saying, "it was grapejuice" (which would make the Bible's admonition to avoid drunkenness moot, but that's another story).
Can we please just clean our own houses and leave each other alone in the liberty to make these decisions for ourselves?
What do I care? I've got my own walk with Christ to be accountable for.
I'm sorry. I know this is awfully sarcastic - even for me! - but, really, how many "Should Christians drink" threads do we have here now?
100? 200? 300?
They all end up the same.
One group says, "it's not a sin. Get off my case."
The other says, "it's a sin and you're an awful person for doing it".
Somebody else will say that it was wine. Then, another person will counter by saying, "it was grapejuice" (which would make the Bible's admonition to avoid drunkenness moot, but that's another story).
Can we please just clean our own houses and leave each other alone in the liberty to make these decisions for ourselves?
guitarpreacher
New Member
That's wrong. Maybe it happened for you that way, but that's not at all how it is for most addicts.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Dale, I used that wording from someone else, and in my neck of the woods the meaning of "should a Christian do this," means, "is it proper for them to." I do understand how proper use of the word "should" can imply encouragement though, so thank you.
AVJim -
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. There is indeed an "inbetween" with alcoholism. They haven't put all the pieces together, but there is a reason they call it a disease. There are genetic links, and there are physical, biochemical causes. There is apparently some kind of link in the way those who suffer from alocholism process sugars. There is a definite physical addiction.
The child of a former alcoholic has a much higher potential for becoming addicted to alcohol even if they grew up in a household that would in no way be labeled "dysfunctional" and without alcohol in the house - IF they ever take that first drink.
Alocholics prefer the use of the word "recovering" as a reminder that one drink could be enough to plunge them back into the nightmare of alochol abuse. Most alocholics consider every day sober again.
As to God delivering them from it. God delivers each and every one of us from sin every day, and God himself said, if they need forgiven 70 times 7, forgive. Surely this means that He understands His deliverance does not remove all temptation, and that many will slide back into sin.
You should go and do some work with some addicts. Get to know them. They struggle daily, and for those who have been recovering for many years, their gratitude to God is inspiring.
AVJim -
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. There is indeed an "inbetween" with alcoholism. They haven't put all the pieces together, but there is a reason they call it a disease. There are genetic links, and there are physical, biochemical causes. There is apparently some kind of link in the way those who suffer from alocholism process sugars. There is a definite physical addiction.
The child of a former alcoholic has a much higher potential for becoming addicted to alcohol even if they grew up in a household that would in no way be labeled "dysfunctional" and without alcohol in the house - IF they ever take that first drink.
Alocholics prefer the use of the word "recovering" as a reminder that one drink could be enough to plunge them back into the nightmare of alochol abuse. Most alocholics consider every day sober again.
As to God delivering them from it. God delivers each and every one of us from sin every day, and God himself said, if they need forgiven 70 times 7, forgive. Surely this means that He understands His deliverance does not remove all temptation, and that many will slide back into sin.
You should go and do some work with some addicts. Get to know them. They struggle daily, and for those who have been recovering for many years, their gratitude to God is inspiring.
My maternal uncle (I had two) was an alcoholic and an incestuous pedophile. I knew him almost not at all. He committed suicide with a pistol after his wife left him due to his abuse of her and their kids. That was in the mid 50s when I was less than 8 years old. His daughter some two years earlier at 19 committed suicide by hanging herself. His sons are all estranged from the family and one, the youngest, died in the mid 1990s of what we all think was AIDS as he was gay. This youngest son was also an ordained Methodist minister who divorced his wife and companioned with another man. Alcohol caused it all and was the beginning of it all.
Some two to three years later, my brother was killed by a drunk driver. He was 19 and a gifted artist and a gymnast at university.
My other maternal uncle was an ordained Southern Baptist minister who once commented that if he wanted to have wine with his meal, he had to pull all the window shades in the all the windows no matter if it was day or night; go into the bedroom and get into the closet to eat his meal as if he did not some well meaning member of his congregation would ring the door bell and upon entering the house notice the glass of wine on the table and then the following day there would be an accusation made that my uncle would have to account for.
In addition to all of this, my older brother is part owner of a winery in Southern Illinois and grows grapes for that business.
I have every reason not to drink for all the right reasons above. But I do nonetheless.
I was reared not to drink any alcohol in order to avoid all of the above. Being a military man I was stationed in Germany where the beer was real bier and not the rot gut domestic beers of America and the wine was succulent and mild or even fruity. I developed a taste for both
Today some 30 years following the German experience, I drink a rare bottle of wine (white and red) once or twice a year. I do it in my house with meals and seldom ever out in public. I do not see that there is a conflict of my Christian walk to do so and consider it between me and God. I do not encourage others in this as again I think it is a personal decision that we Christians are free to make.
On top of all that, I hold an Associates Degree in substance abuse counseling, a field I was never welcomed in since I was not ever recovering from anything. [Nicotine didn't count, they said, even though I was a 2 pack a day (on good days) smoker for 26 years. And fully addicted to nicotine.] I've been clean and smoke free for 8 years.
Does any of that fit into the questionaire of your poll, TexasSky???
Some two to three years later, my brother was killed by a drunk driver. He was 19 and a gifted artist and a gymnast at university.
My other maternal uncle was an ordained Southern Baptist minister who once commented that if he wanted to have wine with his meal, he had to pull all the window shades in the all the windows no matter if it was day or night; go into the bedroom and get into the closet to eat his meal as if he did not some well meaning member of his congregation would ring the door bell and upon entering the house notice the glass of wine on the table and then the following day there would be an accusation made that my uncle would have to account for.
In addition to all of this, my older brother is part owner of a winery in Southern Illinois and grows grapes for that business.
I have every reason not to drink for all the right reasons above. But I do nonetheless.
I was reared not to drink any alcohol in order to avoid all of the above. Being a military man I was stationed in Germany where the beer was real bier and not the rot gut domestic beers of America and the wine was succulent and mild or even fruity. I developed a taste for both
Today some 30 years following the German experience, I drink a rare bottle of wine (white and red) once or twice a year. I do it in my house with meals and seldom ever out in public. I do not see that there is a conflict of my Christian walk to do so and consider it between me and God. I do not encourage others in this as again I think it is a personal decision that we Christians are free to make.
On top of all that, I hold an Associates Degree in substance abuse counseling, a field I was never welcomed in since I was not ever recovering from anything. [Nicotine didn't count, they said, even though I was a 2 pack a day (on good days) smoker for 26 years. And fully addicted to nicotine.] I've been clean and smoke free for 8 years.
Does any of that fit into the questionaire of your poll, TexasSky???
I can't answer the poll. The last question has two answers that are close, but not sufficient for me to answer.
I cannot say that Christians SHOULD drink in moderation, but I do not think that drinking in moderation has to be sinful.
I do not think drinking is a good idea, generally, but I will not fault another for drinking in moderation.
In the Bible belt, in conservative churches, drinking can often be sinful due to the stumbling block it often presents. If I lived in Europe, things might be a bit different.
Overall, I say it's a matter of personal choice.
I cannot say that Christians SHOULD drink in moderation, but I do not think that drinking in moderation has to be sinful.
I do not think drinking is a good idea, generally, but I will not fault another for drinking in moderation.
In the Bible belt, in conservative churches, drinking can often be sinful due to the stumbling block it often presents. If I lived in Europe, things might be a bit different.
Overall, I say it's a matter of personal choice.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Billy Mac,
Thank you.
It does. I think people's views on such things are strongly influenced by personal experience. Hence the reason I posted the poll.
My own stance is that drinking itself isn't a sin, until it interferes with obedience to God, but that what we do as Christians can have a tremendous impact on others.
My son has a high potential, statistically speaking, of having substance abuse issues. I haven't ever given him the SASSI to measure it exactly of course. But because there are blood relatives on his father's side, and on my side of the family who cannot handle alcohol, and because my son is considered a "sensitive" male, and because he seems to "crave" sugar - if he ever starts - he is, statistically, high risk to never stop.
So, when I look around, it is important to me that he KNOWS he is at risk, to know its dangerous, and to know its not a necessary part of his life. So - I kind of prefer he not walk into the local steak house and see his sunday school teacher and preacher having a cold one.
Now, if he DID see these men drinking (once I got over the surprise myself), I wouldn't think they should step down, or that they were bad Christians, or anything like that.
I would though, feel they owed it to my son to personally explain to him that they didn't drink to get drunk, that they only did it occasionally, etc., etc., etc., because, they are leaders of the church and roll models to every young man in the church.
I'm amazed they didn't let you work with substance abuse given your family affiliation, however, times have changed over the years, and I know that organizations like AAA prefer that recovering addicts work with addicts, but I know some clinics and counseling associations and Christian associations that don't require counselors to be victims of addiction.
Anyway, thank you for sharing. I'm sorry your family has gone through so much pain.
Thank you.
It does. I think people's views on such things are strongly influenced by personal experience. Hence the reason I posted the poll.
My own stance is that drinking itself isn't a sin, until it interferes with obedience to God, but that what we do as Christians can have a tremendous impact on others.
My son has a high potential, statistically speaking, of having substance abuse issues. I haven't ever given him the SASSI to measure it exactly of course. But because there are blood relatives on his father's side, and on my side of the family who cannot handle alcohol, and because my son is considered a "sensitive" male, and because he seems to "crave" sugar - if he ever starts - he is, statistically, high risk to never stop.
So, when I look around, it is important to me that he KNOWS he is at risk, to know its dangerous, and to know its not a necessary part of his life. So - I kind of prefer he not walk into the local steak house and see his sunday school teacher and preacher having a cold one.
Now, if he DID see these men drinking (once I got over the surprise myself), I wouldn't think they should step down, or that they were bad Christians, or anything like that.
I would though, feel they owed it to my son to personally explain to him that they didn't drink to get drunk, that they only did it occasionally, etc., etc., etc., because, they are leaders of the church and roll models to every young man in the church.
I'm amazed they didn't let you work with substance abuse given your family affiliation, however, times have changed over the years, and I know that organizations like AAA prefer that recovering addicts work with addicts, but I know some clinics and counseling associations and Christian associations that don't require counselors to be victims of addiction.
Anyway, thank you for sharing. I'm sorry your family has gone through so much pain.
Psalm145 3
New Member
I know what causes alcoholism. Are you ready for this? ALCOHOL!
Total abstinence from alcoholic beverages will not harm the one who practices it or anyone else!
Be not deceived. Be sober.
Total abstinence from alcoholic beverages will not harm the one who practices it or anyone else!
Be not deceived. Be sober.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Psalm 145, the deceived part is the point. Most of the Biblical passages that talk about drinking refer to drunkenness, not drinking as the sin. Moderation is the key.
AVJim...Having had many relatives and a father in law who were alcoholics, there is indeed an "in between" for these people as TS states (What??? I agree with TS??? Is the sky falling??? LOL
)
I've worked in missions with many drunkards, people who have gone from being multi-millionaires to having nothing but the bottle. They've lost businesses, homes, families, etc. In my youth, I used to drink to excess and would wake up not knowing what I'd done the night or day before. I even woke up in different towns several states away. My drinking was to cover up many years of spiritual and physical abuse by churches and their leadership, and by a dysfunctional family. But, I finally stopped thanks to a friend who took me into his home and helped me "dry out". I have taken drinks since then with no problems. But, there have been other times when working for a bakery in Minnesota that I had to deliver to a bar and a casino that both served alcohol, and just the smell made me want to drink. It was so strong, and there were so many things going on that I knew that a drink would "help me through" it. It was tough, but I didn't take those drinks, and eventually was suspended from my job for taking a stand on it.
Is drinking wrong? No. Is it unscriptural? No, not in and of itself...in excess, yes, it is! But, there is indeed a middle ground. I face it several times a year.
AVJim...Having had many relatives and a father in law who were alcoholics, there is indeed an "in between" for these people as TS states (What??? I agree with TS??? Is the sky falling??? LOL
)I've worked in missions with many drunkards, people who have gone from being multi-millionaires to having nothing but the bottle. They've lost businesses, homes, families, etc. In my youth, I used to drink to excess and would wake up not knowing what I'd done the night or day before. I even woke up in different towns several states away. My drinking was to cover up many years of spiritual and physical abuse by churches and their leadership, and by a dysfunctional family. But, I finally stopped thanks to a friend who took me into his home and helped me "dry out". I have taken drinks since then with no problems. But, there have been other times when working for a bakery in Minnesota that I had to deliver to a bar and a casino that both served alcohol, and just the smell made me want to drink. It was so strong, and there were so many things going on that I knew that a drink would "help me through" it. It was tough, but I didn't take those drinks, and eventually was suspended from my job for taking a stand on it.
Is drinking wrong? No. Is it unscriptural? No, not in and of itself...in excess, yes, it is! But, there is indeed a middle ground. I face it several times a year.
Should Christians drink alcohol? Well, what does the Bible have to say on this? It is very clear to me from what Paul says, "do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissoluteness" (Ephesians 5:18)
Paul does NOT forbid Christian from consuming alcoholic wine, but warns them to drink in moderation, or else it would lead to improper or immoral behaviour, which is what the Greek says. The fact that a person can become intoxicated by this wine which Paul is referring to, shows that it is not as some assume, "alcohol free" wine, that he means. For this would destroy his own argument.
I agree with Rachel here, that we impose our own "man made rules", which go beyond what Scripture teaches.
Paul does NOT forbid Christian from consuming alcoholic wine, but warns them to drink in moderation, or else it would lead to improper or immoral behaviour, which is what the Greek says. The fact that a person can become intoxicated by this wine which Paul is referring to, shows that it is not as some assume, "alcohol free" wine, that he means. For this would destroy his own argument.
I agree with Rachel here, that we impose our own "man made rules", which go beyond what Scripture teaches.
Alcohol is the chemical catalyst that leads to alcoholism, but not the cause. There has to be a propensity toward addictive behaviors in order to establish an addiction. Some drink to deaden their pain afflicted by another causative factor, such as for example molestation or abuse.
The non-alcoholic can drink in moderation and never become addicted.
Bible Believing Bill
<img src =/bbb.jpg>
Alcohol is the chemical catalyst that leads to alcoholism, but not the cause. There has to be a propensity toward addictive behaviors in order to establish an addiction. Some drink to deaden their pain afflicted by another causative factor, such as for example molestation or abuse.
The non-alcoholic can drink in moderation and never become addicted. </font>[/QUOTE]Be careful BillyMac about saying never. I was at a NAMI (National Alliance for the Mentally Ill) meeting a couple of months ago and the speaker was from a Drug and Alcohol Rehab Center. There were a couple of very interesting things she said.
1. Just because someone has been able to drink or use drugs for along period of time without becomming addicted dosn't mean that they will never become addicted. Her example was a man in his 80's who had been a social drinker his entire life, but not an alcoholic. When his wife died he began to drink more and more until he finnally had to be checked into their facility for rehab. Her point was that the only sure way of never becomming addicted to alcohol or any drug for that matter is to never use it. If you use it at all the possibility exhists that you can become addicted.
2. The drug with the most dangerous withrdrawl symptoms possibly including death is alcohol. In comparioson she said herion withdrawl can be compared to bad case of the stomache flu. You may feel like you want to die durring herion withdrawl, but you proabably won't. In alcohol withdrawl the possiblity of death is much greater.
Bill