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Regarding those who have never heard...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alive in Christ, Aug 24, 2011.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    John did you even go to his website or are you just going by what others have said?

    Here are testimonials by several preachers.

    Facebook page

    The point of even bringing this to you was to show that God does indeed work through means other than reading scripture. That is all I am trying to say.

    I am quite disappointed at the attitudes of certain people who question his testimony. Only God and Andy know what when on that day and Andy is only trying to share the saving grace of Christ with others.

    While some of you sit here in judgment and criticized him, how much have you done for the kingdom of God?
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I went to the link you gave and searched the whole website, I thought, but I'm afraid I missed this link. I'm not judging Andy, just think he needs to do a better job on his website, and for sure give us a statement of faith and a genuine testimony of his salvation (not just the lion experience) and get rid of Oprah Larry. Those are negatives to me and I'm sure many others.
     
    #182 John of Japan, Sep 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2011
  3. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You didn't really just say that, did you? You didn't really say that to John of Japan, did you? You didn't really just say that John of Japan HASN'T DONE MUCH FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD, DID YOU!!!!?????

    Amy, friend, I understand the testimony in question belongs to a friend of yours. However, even in close personal relationships, I would encourage you not to let your emotions take over your brain.

    There are people on this board who have done more for the Kingdom and have sacrificed more for the Kingdom than you or I can possibly fathom.

    The statement, above, is a gross generalization and it is terribly wrong-headed. You owe several people here an apology (but, not me).

    A word to the wise should be sufficient.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  4. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    AmyG...

    Its very frustrating regarding the closedmindedness of a few people on here. They simply will not let God out of the little box that they apparently feel God must stay in.

    Its a very sad thing to witness.
     
  5. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the opposite is true also--there are some people on this board who are so "open minded" that their brains fall out.

    I am NOT saying that you or Amy is one of these people.

    The Archangel
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    :laugh::laugh::thumbs:
     
  7. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I did not generalize. I specifically addressed my post to those who are judgmental. If the shoe fits, well.......
     
  8. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    It's 0235 in the Eastern US as I sit down to write this response--make that 0236. It has been a very long day. Out of the last 36 or so hours I have slept for only 2. My eldest daughter had a scheduled surgery to remove a congenital defect. She is doing quite well--all praise to God.

    So, what I have to say, might be a bit more raw than the typical "Archangel" response. Perhaps it is ill-advised to write such a response when I am in the state of sleep deprivation that I am in. But, there are many things, Amy, that simply must be addressed.

    1. The over-arching problem in this entire thread is that you are offended that some people down-play the experience of your friend.

    While I'm sure his experience was, in fact, real and while I'm sure his experience led him to embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ, his experience is not and will not ever be the Gospel. This is, simply put, something you need to come to terms with.

    Many people do have deep and genuine experiences that drive them to Christ. Those experiences are nothing more and nothing less than a tool, perhaps in the hand of the Holy Spirit, to open one's heart to the Gospel.

    It is of utmost importance for you, me, and everyone calling himself or herself a Christian to understand the difference between an experience that opens the door to the Gospel and the Gospel itself.

    The Gospel has been and always will be the field of engagement God uses in bringing people to Himself, not an experience. The Gospel is the Gospel. It, at the very least, must include the four following elements: 1.) God--who He is as Creator, Judge, etc.; 2.) Man--who we are as sinful rebels deserving of death at God's righteous wrath; 3.) Christ--who He is as Savior and Substitute; and 4.) Response--that we must respond favorably to the Gospel and embrace Christ, giving up our rebellion and becoming pardoned rebels.

    No experience of mountain lions, run-away trains, terrorist attacks, cute and fuzzy bunnies, etc. will ever be the Gospel.

    2. You are judging people because you perceive them to be judging you and/or your friend.

    There are very learned people here from all sides of the theological spectrum and from all places along the Arminian-Calvinist continuum. Many, who don't agree on much, have agreed that your friend's experience--again, being a real and genuine experience--is not, in and of itself, the Gospel or a conversion, per se.

    Rather than give evaluation on whether they may be right, you simply claim they are "judging" your friend. But--and here's the unfortunate part--you turn right around and judge them. In fact, you go so far as to say that one who says anything against your friend hasn't done much for the kingdom of God.

    This is, simply, a hideously stupid thing to say--especially when you throw that statement at John of Japan, who has "let goods and kindred go" to serve Christ in a nation that is not his and to serve a people who are not his own--though the Japanese are generally regarded as a people who are most-hardened to the Gospel. John has gone to the "hard places" and he has done the "hard things." He deserves your admiration (and mine), not your accusation.

    In your emotional effort to defend your friend, which is admirable, you have, unfortunately, allowed your heart to rule your mind. This is quite dangerous for anyone to do--the heart being more "subjective" and the mind being more "objective."

    And though you have feigned taking the higher ground, the all-encompassing labeling of many learned and caring people as "judgmental" shows that you yourself are doing what you are accusing others of doing--judging. It is clear to us that, though you seemingly deny playing the part of Cinderella, the missing glass slipper is your size.

    And, let's not forget, experience is not infallible. Is it possible your friend is in error? Sure. Just as it is possible that I am in error or you are in error. The scriptures are infallible, the Gospel is infallible. Experience is, by definition, subjective. If, indeed, your friend happens to be in error, what you have done, here, in this case, is elevated the subjective experience of a friend over the objective truth of scripture--no doubt a perilous problem.

    So, in summary, I would greatly encourage you to find an objective "hill to die on" in the sacred text, not the experience(s) of a friend. I would also encourage you, when you have a brother, such as you have here, that you do not allow yourself to use him as a tool to demonstrate your lack of Christian charity for another group of brothers and sisters. It must be the goal of any believer--though we all fail at this from time to time--to demonstrate proper Christian love and deference to each other. In other words, you don't get to lambaste us here on the BB simply because you like your friend more than you like us. That is not how Christians are to treat one another.

    Again, though you didn't listen the last time, a word to the wise should be sufficient. And, I would add, you still owe many (though not me) an apology--especially John of Japan.

    The Archangel
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Yes, I think your post was ill advised. You are accusing me of something I NEVER said nor implied.

    I never said an experience is the gospel. What I said was his experience led him to Christ.

    If you will go back and read the entire thread, you will see that my only reason for posting Andy's experience was to show that God does indeed reveal Himself to individuals in various ways other than the spoken or written word. That was the argument when I came in. And that is the subject of the OP.
    Some were saying that God does not reveal Himself in any way other than through the reading of scripture or a missionary.
    JOJ himself was telling of stories where people who have never seen a word of scripture were prepared by God to hear the gospel when it came to them.

    My relationship with JOJ is quite frankly none of your business. We have been friends for years. I KNOW he is a very important workman for God.

    I do not appreciate being scolded in public for something I did not do. I know the difference between the gospel of Christ and an experience. But I also know that experiences can bring us to Christ in preparation for the gospel. That was the WHOLE point of my posting Andy's experience.

    Next time, get some sleep before you lambast me for something I did not do.

    BTW, I'm glad your daughter is doing well.
     
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad your affirmation(s) seem to be more in line with orthodoxy. However, I would like to address the following statement:

    I have read the thread. It would seem that you are, so to speak, speaking out of both sides of your mouth. But, I don't think this is intentional on your part.

    While I am glad to see your affirmation that an experience is not the Gospel, it seems like your understanding of the experience places too much emphasis experience itself.

    An experience, as I have said, may indeed lead persons to Christ. However, it is a far stretch to say that an experience is God's revelation of Himself. The only revelation of God we have today is the spoken or written word of His self-revelation (the Bible). God has, indeed, spoken. His revelation is complete. We have His Word and there is nothing to add.

    So, an experience is not an example of God's self-revelation. An experience can, and sometimes does, lead an individual to seek God. When the seeking leads him or her to the Gospel, that is when God reveals Himself.

    (And, for the record, I am not a cessationist. To quote a professor I had in Seminary: "I lean towards cessationism. I just can't prove it exegetically).
    So, again, we must make sure not to conflate these two things--experience and the Gospel.

    And, I'd like to address this statement:

    Actually, because JoJ is a brother in Christ and because you are a sister in Christ, it is my business how you treat him. For the record, I am happy to see that you affirm his work in the Kingdom. Which is about all I was trying have you affirm after your statement calling his (and others') service into question.

    If you will recall, I took exception to this post of yours:

    In this post, you were, in fact, addressing JoJ and making the statement: "While some of you sit here in judgment and criticized him, how much have you done for the kingdom of God?" To which I replied:

    Then, rather shockingly, you replied:

    So, you were, in fact, questioning what JoJ has done for the Kingdom based solely on his affirmation or denial of the validity of your friend's experience.

    You were given the chance to say that you were not addressing JoJ and you only affirmed your including JoJ in your statement. So, it is something you did do, though you might not be aware of it.

    Sometimes, in lack of sleep there is great clarity and directness. The "lambasting" itself was not ill-advised, nor was it intended to be a lambasting. The directness and bluntness (no doubt a result of sleep deprivation) was the only ill-advised component. My normally "gentlemanly" (as someone else has said in the past) tone was perhaps conspicuously absent.

    My daughter has done amazingly well. The only evidence she's had anything done to her is the steri-strips closing her neck--though we're still giving her pain meds every 6 hours (o-t-c children's ibuprofen). Great doctors they have there at DC Children's Hospital. Very thankful for all the folks we had praying.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  11. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    To get back to the OP, there is a logic flaw at work causing all the fussing.

    It starts early in the OP quote that most evangelicals believe the unevangelized will be damned.

    Inclusivism would provide for their salvation through the work of Christ without explicitly hearing the gospel.

    Most in that camp I have read or dealt with will raise the question like this:
    So someone goes to hell just because they didn't hear the gospel?

    We need to point out to them the illogic: 1. Folks go to hell because of their sin, not for what they heard or didn't hear. 2. Romans makes it clear the theoretical possibly they could have responded to the light they had positively--and Acts and Romans both make it clear no one does. 3. God is a God of justice--sending Bill to hell because Bud didn't go and evangelize they way God told Bud to would not be justice.

    We need then to ask them to produce one single person who would have accepted Christ had they heard, but did not get the chance to hear and so went to hell.

    Obviously we cannot produce a person from hell--but they will get the drift if they can reason that we DO NOT say that there are those persons in hell if we are exclusionists.

    God could make sure all the elect DO HEAR--Calvinism.

    God could make sure all who will respond positively DO HEAR--Arminianism.

    God can speak to the human heart directly if He so chooses--He is omnipotent.

    We all read Love Wins. Rob Bell did raise good questions. But often he used circular reasoning or faulty base statements.

    One can hold to exclusivism AND a totally merciful God.
     
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Basicaslly, what seperates a person From God is there sin nature and condition, which results in them rejecting jesus , and they MUST have a status change from sinner to saint to get saved!
     
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