1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Regeneration happens at the same time as saving faith is given,

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Saving faith and regeneration happen simultaneously

    .Abstract of Systematic Theology, James P. Boyce | The Reformed Reader

    At the outset of a discussion of these two subjects we are met by the question, whether they are not one and the same thing. They are unquestionably so intimately associated that it is difficult to separate them and point out the distinctions between them. The Scriptures connect the two under the one idea of the new birth, and teach that not only is regeneration an absolute essential in each conversion, but that in every intelligent responsible soul conversion invariably accompanies regeneration. It is not strange, therefore, that they are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is the act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart.

    I. It is best first to collect together the various terms and expressions in which this whole matter is taught.

    1. Forms of the verb gennao, which means "to beget."

    John 1:13; 3:3, 4 (two places), 5, 6, 7, 8; 1 Cor. 4:15; Philemon 10; 1 John 2:29; 3:9 (two places); 4:7; 5:1 (three places); 5:4, 18 (two places).

    2. Compound forms of gennao.

    1 Pet. 1:23. "Having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth."

    Titus 3:5. "He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

    3. The word apekuesen is used in James 1:18, and means to bring forth or bear young, and there evidently means to bring to the condition of sonship.

    4. Ktisis and ktizo, which mean creation and create, are found in 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:10, 15; 4:24.

    5. Sunezoopoiesen, he quickened together with (Christ). Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13.

    In addition to the above uses of single words are the following passages which speak of the word of God as an effective instrument, but not as a creative power. These, however, do not connect this instrument with either regeneration or conversion necessarily; but speaks of it (a) as a means of partaking of the divine nature, 2 Pet. 1:4; (b) as a means of purifying, John 15:3; (c) as a means of Christian defense, Eph. 6:17; and (d) as an instrument of powerful conviction and destruction of the wicked, Heb. 4:12.

    II. From the Scriptural teaching we see that the whole work of Regeneration and Conversion is included under the one term regeneration.

    It is true that but few of the passages refer to anything save the work of God; yet these few sufficiently teach the use of the word in regeneration to lead us not to reject, as a part of it, that result of God's act which, in connection with the word, leads to the full union of its subject with Christ through repentance and faith.

    The passages in connection with Paul as God's instrument, 1 Cor. 4:15, and Philemon 10, would not be conclusive, but they are made so by others.

    However much James 1:18 suggests a different aspect of the work, namely, the bringing forth that which has been begotten, still it so nearly connects that idea with the begetting as to create doubt if the whole work may not be virtually involved.

    But 1 Pet. 1:23, by the use of the compound of gennao, shows that all the work of the Spirit, including both the new heart and the leading of it to conscious faith, is properly to be spoken of by the same term as a mere change of heart.

    The whole work is thus spoken of, however, because God is operative from the beginning to the end, but this does not prove that he does not operate differently in one part from what he does in the other.

    III. The Scripture teaching is that God operates immediately upon the heart to produce the required change, by which it is fitted to receive the truth, and mediately through the word in its reception of that truth.

    1. He operates immediately upon the heart to prepare the way for the truth. This is evident

    (1.) From the description given of man's spiritual condition.

    (a) As spiritually dead. Eph. 2:1.

    (b) As blind. Eph. 4:18.

    (c) As slaves to sin. John 8:34; Rom. 6:17, 19.

    (d) As needing deliverance from the powers of darkness. Col. 1:13.

    (e) As incapable of knowing or discerning the things of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:18.

    (f) As incapable of changing himself. Jer. 13:23.

    (g) As defiled in conscience. Tit. 1:15.

    These passages show man in a condition from which he must be rescued even to understand and appreciate the truth of God.

    (2.) The Scripture attributes the birth to the will of God exclusively, thus showing that in some aspect it is not to be regarded as due to the reception of the truth. John 1:13.

    [For sections (3), (4), (5) and (6), see Hodge's Outlines, p. 451.]

    (3.) The influence of the Spirit is distinguished from that of the word. John 6:45, 64, 65; 1 Cor. 2:12-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6.

    (4.) A divine influence is declared to be necessary for the reception of the truth. Ps. 119:18; Acts 16:14; Eph. 1:17-20.

    (5.) Such an internal operation on the heart is attributed to God. Matt. 11:25; Luke 10:21; Phil. 2:13; 2 Thess. 1:11; Heb. 13:21.

    (6.) The nature of this influence is evidently different from that effected by the truth. Eph. 1:19; 3:7; 2 Tim. 2:25.

    (7.) This influence is spoken of as a preparation of the heart for the truth; which, therefore, must be distinct from the truth or its reception. Luke 8:8, 15; Acts 16:14.

    This preparation of the heart comes from God. 1 Chron. 29:18, 19; Ps. 119:18; Prov. 16:1; Acts 16:14; Rom. 9:23.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Faith:
    Baptist
    pt2;
    2. The Spirit acts mediately through the word.

    (1.) He inspired that word and sends it forth for the accomplishment of the ends designed. John 14:16; 2 Tim. 3:16.

    (2.) He aids the ministry and others in making it known. 1 Cor. 4:7; 2 Thess. 3:1.

    To the extent that these are his agents he uses the word.

    (3.) The instrument thus used is in itself effective as truth. Heb. 4:12. Therefore, Christians are commanded in their spiritual warfare to take the word of God as the sword of the Spirit. Eph. 6:17. It is, however, made especially so to the heart prepared for it by his illuminating influences, which reveal its beauties and its suitableness, and by the aid of the memory which recalls, and the conscience which applies, and the affections which lay hold upon it. 2 Tim. 3:15, 16, 17.

    (4.) Christians are, therefore, said to be "brought forth, (James 1:18), by the word of truth," because that is the seed sown in the prepared ground through which they are led by repentance and faith to union with Christ and sonship of God.

    (5.) Since this use of the Scriptures is due to their own fitness to present motives to action, the Spirit of God is not limited to this word alone but uses such other truth, and such events of life as may be effective towards the contemplated end. Thus any events in God's providence, as afflictions, or dangers, or personal sins, or the conversion of others, or aught else that may lead to seeking God, are used as a means of awakening, or of giving deeper conviction, or of enforcing the Scripture truths which lead to conversion.

    (6.) This is especially true of the ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's Supper duly set forth before mankind. So far as these ordinances are fitted to convey truth, or to impress duty, they are instrumental in regeneration.

    (7.) But neither of them regenerates or confers regeneration.

    (a) This is not done by the Lord's Supper. It has been argued from John 6:51-58, where Christ promises eternal life to those who shall eat his flesh and drink his blood, and denies it to all who shall not. The language used refers to spiritual participation in his salvation. It is similar to the promise to the woman at Sychar that "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14. It is argued that Christ must have meant partaking of his real body, because he did not correct the Jews who, because they so understood him, rejected him. But, John 8:51-53, he did not correct a similar mistake which led to a similar result when he said in verse 51, "If a man keep my word he shall never see death."

    (b) Even more distinctly is this true of Baptism. Spiritual effects are spoken of in connection with this ordinance. Thus we have "the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Titus 3:5. We have Paul exhorted by Ananias, Acts 22:16, "arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins," and the language of Christ, John 3:5, "Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The first of these has reference to the cleansing influence of regeneration by the Spirit in like manner as his renewing, which is spoken of in the immediate context and has no reference to baptism. That the last refers to baptism is at least doubtful; but admitting that it does, which is doubtless true of the second, we have here outward baptism, only as symbolizing an inward change and not producing it. The following reasons plainly show that neither of these ordinances has regenerating power.

    (1.) That ordinances can only be signs of grace and cannot confer it.

    (2.) They may convey truth symbolically, and only such truth is fitted to affect the mind. But nothing symbolized by these two can confer regeneration upon those receiving them.

    (3.) They are appointed to be used only by those who have been regenerated. Baptism is an act of obedience, symbolizing the death of believers to sin, and resurrection to new life, and setting forth their union with Christ in his death and burial. The Lord's Supper is to be partaken of by those already, as Christian believers, united together in church fellowship.

    (4.) That this was the use of Baptism is evident from the practice of the Apostolic Christians. Acts 2:41. The baptized had received his word. This followed repentance and preceded baptism. The addition to the text in Acts 8:37 could not have taken place had it not been for the universal prevalence of the idea that faith necessarily precedes baptism. Paul before his baptism had received the Lord Jesus and his eyes had been opened and the Holy Ghost given. Acts 9:18. Cornelius and his house also received the Holy Ghost and spake with tongues before their baptism. Acts 10:44-48. The Jailer at Philippi manifestly believed before he was baptized. Baptism without antecedent faith was treated as invalid in certain disciples at Ephesus. Acts 19:1-5.

    (5.) That this was also true of the Lord's Supper is shown by the fact that it was partaken of only by churches, and the members of churches are everywhere spoken of and treated as converted persons; also by the further fact that it was a memorial service ("in remembrance of me") and a memorial implies previous knowledge of the persons and facts remembered. But only such a knowledge and remembrance could be blessed, as involved faith in Jesus. 1 Cor. 11:28, 29.

    (6.) The Spirit does not make truth effective by giving it additional force to that which it has naturally, but by so affecting the mind that the man is prepared to receive it with its own due force. Thus he changes the mind, illuminates the mind, helps it appreciate and lay hold of truth. Only thus does he make truth effectual. Therefore, the outward washing or partaking can have no effect to renew, or regenerate the heart, which must itself have been prepared, before it can even appropriate the truths conveyed by these ordinances.

    The above statements are only intended to meet the views of Romanists and such others as claim regenerating influence of sacraments, and not those of such as make Baptism only a condition of pardon. The latter claim that regeneration is through the word only and are met by the proofs that the Spirit acts independently of the word.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Faith:
    Baptist
    pt3;

    Conversion

    I. This is the result of regeneration. The new heart is prepared to turn to God and does actually so turn. Without regeneration, the sinfulness of man keeps him away from God, causes him to set his affections upon self and his own pleasure, and to find gratification in things which are opposed to God and holiness. The regenerated heart has new affections and desires and is, therefore, fitted to seek after God and holiness.

    II. It is both the act of God and of man co-operating with him.

    1. It is the act of God. It is thus described in the Scriptures.

    1 Kings 18:37. "Thou hast turned their heart back again."

    Ps. 80:3. "Turn us again, O God; and cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved."

    Ps. 85:4. "Turn us, O God of our salvation."

    Song of Sol. 1:4. "Draw me; we will run after thee."

    Jer. 30:21. "I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me."

    Jer. 31:18. "Turn thou me, and I shall be turned."

    Ezek. 36:27. "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him."

    2. It is the act of the regenerated heart actively co-operating in thus turning.

    Deut. 4:30. "Thou shalt return to the Lord thy God."

    Prov. 1:23. "Turn you at my reproof."

    Hosea 12:6. "Therefore turn thou to thy God."

    Isaiah 55:7. "Let him return unto the Lord."

    Joel 2:13. "Rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God."

    Acts 11:21. "A great number that believed turned unto the Lord."

    III. The question naturally arises what is the nature of conversion. In reply it may be said that it consists:

    1. Not in mere outward reformation.

    2. Not in return from backsliding.

    3. But in the turning of the heart to God and holiness. It is a turning of the thoughts, desires and affections of the heart from sinful and carnal lusts and pleasures toward holy things, and God, and Christ, and salvation. It is a turning from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God. [See Gill's Divinity 2:132-4.] It consists "in a man's turning actively to God under the influence of divine grace." [Gill 2:135]

    IV. This conversion comprises:

    1. A knowledge of the true God, and acceptance of him as such.

    2. Knowledge of personal sin, guilt and condemnation.

    3. Sorrow for sin and desire to escape condemnation.

    4. Determination to turn away from sin and seek God.

    5. Conviction of personal need of help in so doing.

    6. Knowledge of Christ as a Saviour from sin.

    7. Personal trust in Christ and his salvation.

    NOTE. A man in one sense maybe called converted as soon as he has truly turned to God and is also seeking to know and do his will. This is that amount of conversion which is so nearly contemporaneous with regeneration as to be liable to be supposed to exist at the same moment with it, and which indeed in a being capable of thought on such subjects must be its immediate effect.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,200
    Likes Received:
    167
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I tend to agree. The whole ordo salutis concept is simple a matter of logic and an attempt to clarify correlation vs. causation and to avoid falling into the trap of reversing the causative order of events.

    I believe that regeneration does precede faith in a logical sense, but practically speaking, when God regenerates a person, that's pretty much going to be followed immediately by faith. I don't think we are dealing with a situation where people are going around as regenerate persons who do not yet have faith.

    Saying that regeneration precedes faith is really mostly the argument that faith doesn't cause regeneration. This can be argued ad nauseam precisely because regeneration and faith are so close to each other that the only way to discern the order is to consider the reasons why a person wouldn't be able to believe without first being regenerated.

    I know anecdotal evidence isn't authoritative, but I know that my belief that regeneration precedes faith is partly linked to my own salvation experience.

    For the vast majority of my life, I either thought I was a believer or bounced around with atheism, agnosticism, etc, sometimes coming back around to Christianity for a bit. But I could never quite understand how people who seemed to have genuine faith were just able to trust God. I didn't trust God at all to do anything. I basically expected nothing from him, and any time something negative in my life happened, I railed at God or turned to some other belief system.

    When I finally reached the breaking point, I was thinking about how others who had also been at "rock bottom" in various ways had been able to emerge from despair due to their faith, but I had no idea how to believe.

    I simply did not have the capacity to trust God, and I didn't believe in him. I believed he existed, but that was about it. In a moment of desperation, I felt entirely helpless and only could pray something to the effect of "I don't know how to believe--will you help me?" At that very moment, God did his work.

    I instantaneously went from having absolutely no idea how to believe to knowing that I trusted Christ. It was baffling to me and definitely made me realize that I DEFINITELY did not know God before that moment. I know that I did absolutely nothing. I was never able to believe before that moment because God had not yet raised me out of spiritual death. When he did, he gave me the ability to believe in him.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,298
    Likes Received:
    1,530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
    46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
    47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jn 1

    Compare 'God in the flesh' praise of Nathanael, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" with:

    29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

    Not a doubt in my mind Nathanael was born from above before ever hearing of 'Jesus of Nazareth'.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,200
    Likes Received:
    167
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That situation is a bit different because he was already a believing Jew at the time Jesus came, and he did not reject Jesus when he encountered Jesus. He was essentially an "Old Testament saint" who was on the earth when the Messiah came, so I agree with your assessment of him specifically.

    Almost 2,000 years after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, no one would fit into that category now. Today, if you're a Jew and you don't have faith in Christ, you are definitely still lost in your sin.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,298
    Likes Received:
    1,530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ...and not a smidgin of scripture to support anything you just wrote....

    I've other things to do...
     
  8. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    4,567
    Likes Received:
    112
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would like to address this from a different angle.

    for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. Rom 5:19 YLT
    and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT

    Questions Is, the obedience, of Rom 5:19 the very same, obedient having become, of Phil 2:8? Was it through the obedience of Phil 2:8 the the many are constituted righteous / just? Is the one of the obedience in Rom 5:19 Christ?

    Now.


    And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed,
    so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by (out) faith (of faith, genitive) we may be declared righteous, Gal 3:23,24 YLT

    Questions. Which is it, by which, we are constituted and or declared righteous / just, the obedience or out of faith? Does, before the coming of the faith, have anything to do with becoming obedient?

    Consider:

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, Heb 5:7,8 YLT
    and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, Phil 2:8 YLT

    Again, which is it? Relative to up coming suffering unto death, the Son, Christ, learned, the obedience. Was what he learned, Obedience of Faith? We know it was the Son;s obedience. Whose faith? The generate Son born of the virgin Mary has learned through sufferings, the obedience, has become obedient unto death even the death of the cross. He is about to become un-generate that is, DEAD.

    Before the coming of the faith, under law
    and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor / law

    for ye are all sons of God through the faith (Who's faith***) in Christ Jesus, The Son, the Farther raised from the DEAD, regenerated
    Acts 2:32,33 Rom 8:11 Gal 1:1 Heb 5:5 Col 1:18

    *** Yours, did you make yourself a son of God?


    Obedience of faith, who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death

    Regeneration?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    178
    Here in the ordo salutis, order of salvation the Calvinist position is real weak especially when you have to bring out a wall of text to explain something YOU OUGHT TO KNOW without QUESTION FIRST HAND.


    Were YOU personally regenerated and had faith simultaneously first hand? Give us your testimony.

    If you had the first hand experience then NONE of this need be a mystery explained by someone else.


    Tell us how one day you were minding your own buisness hating God, not seeking him ect. and then bam MINDWIPED Into trust God. with gnostic understanding of scriptures.


    From the testimonies I hear its never this way in Calvinism. I never heard of a NON-Christian go through this. Its almost always a christian who hits rock bottom.

    Tell us YOUR EXPERIENCE that would be the most convincing arguement. But if in your own experience you gotta go thru a checklist and make it up as you go along with revisions of what happened it only means you are trying to force a square peg in a round hole.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,020
    Likes Received:
    410
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's not "gnostic", if people understand it.

    What it is, is unknown to you, utilyan.
    With respect, just because you don't understand something ( at this moment ), does not mean that it cannot be understood.


    For example:

    I don't understand Mandarin Chinese...but there are plenty of people who do.
    They learn it, and then get very good at speaking it.
    But to me, it's as alien a language as they get.

    You're a believer, right?
    You have the word of God, and it can be understood by those who truly love him.
    All it takes is serious study and a mind that is open to Him doing the work.

    I encourage you to avail yourself of it, and spend time with the Saviour you have believed on for the forgiveness of your sins, by seeking Him through His word and prayer.;)



    As for minding my own business, selfishly thinking about what I was going to do when I got home...
    Hating God ( whoever does not love God automatically hates Him...whether or not that "hate" is indifference, or open hostility ) was precisely what I was doing at the time I first believed on Christ, since my mind was about as far from Him as it possibly could have been.

    Then I heard God's word, precisely when I was not seeking Him.
    He sought me out, by having His word preached to me.

    I believed it, and I rejoice that I am saved.:)
     
    #10 Dave Gilbert, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    2,020
    Likes Received:
    410
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The same thing happened to me one day when I was reading through some passages a friend gave me.
    I recognized the truth of God's word, and it hit me, hard.

    Just like the first time I heard His word preached from a pulpit.
    I recognized it, knew it was true, and didn't doubt it one bit.

    God chose me...I didn't choose Him.:Cool
    Or....
    The Lord opened my heart, so that I "attended" to the things spoken of by the preacher ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), and by His word.
    God made me understand His word, how He called me and how He gave His Son for me, and it was that information that further educated me about how and why He saved me.
    There was no "checklist".

    His word filled in the details over time, as I studied it.
    He cleared up many things through that study...things that give him all the credit for saving me.


    Things like:

    It was all of grace, and none of me.
    My salvation is based on nothing I can potentially take any credit for ( Ephesians 2:9 ).
    He gets the glory and praise, and I get to spend the rest of eternity with a Saviour who loves me, and gave Himself for me.:)

    I truly hope that you can say the same, utilyan, despite our disagreements.:Thumbsup
     
    #11 Dave Gilbert, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,298
    Likes Received:
    1,530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What do you think caused Nicodemus to approach Him who 'from God thou hast come' on that fateful night?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,298
    Likes Received:
    1,530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    #13 kyredneck, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good link Kyred,
    I will interact when I get back from the Doctor
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hello Kyred,
    I believe Nicodemus was religious but was being drawn providentially to Jesus by the Spirit.
    I believe this convicting work and effectual calling does take place over a period of time.
    When it is the correct time, the Spirit gives a new heart and quickens the person to life eternal.
    This happens at one point in time, from death to life...
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,298
    Likes Received:
    1,530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    'I believe' Nicodemus was born from above already, and that he was a 'doer of the truth' whose works were wrought in God, and this is what ultimately drew him 'to the light' on that fateful night.

    'I believe' Nicodemus was one of these:
    21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`

    'I believe' Christ's subtle implication to Nicodemus was that he could never SEE that 'from God thou hast come' unless he were FIRST 'born from above':
    2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
    3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`

    'I believe' Abraham was 'born from above' long before Genesis 15:6.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    14,298
    Likes Received:
    1,530
    Faith:
    Baptist
    'I believe' that the doctrine of 'means regeneration' is erroneous and counter productive to study of scripture.

    'I believe' "the Spirit where He willeth doth blow", not confined to where man wills to carry Him.

    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    4,567
    Likes Received:
    112
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Who are the plural of the, know from God thou hast come?

    We Pharisees?

    Were they also born from above?
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    1,497
    Faith:
    Baptist
    kyredneck,

    I believe God does what He wants to do at all times.
    I believe God uses means also.

    Why would Paul preach?
    Why would Paul suggest it was necessary...if it was not necessary?

    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
     
  20. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,952
    Likes Received:
    1,179
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The bolded text is when regeneration takes place. I do not believe the text supports the contention that individuals are regenerated before conversion and justification taking place. God may be providentially working in an individual's life to bring them to the point of regeneration but that is different than God regenerating them for some undetermined period of time.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...