OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Bob
Is this one of those instances where it all depends on what the meaning of is is?
Is this one of those instances where it all depends on what the meaning of is is?
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Regeneration preceeding final acceptance
- Thread starter whetstone
- Start date
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Question by BobRyan repeated in OldRegular’s post of July 29, 2005 09:43 PM
quote:
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Is this union with Christ and NEW creation is the state of the sinful - totally depraved unconverted person?
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quote:OldRegular said
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The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with rebirth or being born again. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ.
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So I have been repeatedly asking
If this union with Christ and NEW creation is really the state of the sinful - totally depraved unconverted person since you are placing UNION with Christ and "spiritually ALIVE in Christ" and the new birth AHEAD of faith, forgivenes repentance and conversion.
I am asking for a BIBLE example where one is said to be REGENERATED but WITHOUT those Gospel basics that you place BEYOND that first event.
As seen in the 'details" posted again - above.
So -- the question "still remains".
Is "now" a good time to finally answer it??
In Christ,
bob
quote:
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Is this union with Christ and NEW creation is the state of the sinful - totally depraved unconverted person?
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I notice that "I keep asking" how you get "regeneration" to NOT include conversion faith and forgiveness SINCE you claim that in the very FIRST example of regeneration we have
quote:OldRegular said
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The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with rebirth or being born again. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I have been repeatedly asking
If this union with Christ and NEW creation is really the state of the sinful - totally depraved unconverted person since you are placing UNION with Christ and "spiritually ALIVE in Christ" and the new birth AHEAD of faith, forgivenes repentance and conversion.
I am asking for a BIBLE example where one is said to be REGENERATED but WITHOUT those Gospel basics that you place BEYOND that first event.
As seen in the 'details" posted again - above.
So -- the question "still remains".
Is "now" a good time to finally answer it??
In Christ,
bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Calvinism NEEDS to make its case that there is regeneration WITHOUT forgiveness, repentance, conversion or faith -- but has no text for such a defintion of "Regeneration".
So when asked to substantiate that Calvinist idea from scripture the way they try to back out is to say "well it is only for a very short time".
AS IF that is a Bible text supporting the idea presented.
It is not.
In Christ,
Bob
So when asked to substantiate that Calvinist idea from scripture the way they try to back out is to say "well it is only for a very short time".
AS IF that is a Bible text supporting the idea presented.
It is not.
In Christ,
Bob
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I notice that "I keep asking" how you get "regeneration" to NOT include conversion faith and forgiveness SINCE you claim that in the very FIRST example of regeneration we have
quote:OldRegular said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with rebirth or being born again. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I have been repeatedly asking
If this union with Christ and NEW creation is really the state of the sinful - totally depraved unconverted person since you are placing UNION with Christ and "spiritually ALIVE in Christ" and the new birth AHEAD of faith, forgivenes repentance and conversion.
I am asking for a BIBLE example where one is said to be REGENERATED but WITHOUT those Gospel basics that you place BEYOND that first event.
As seen in the 'details" posted again - above.
So -- the question "still remains".
Is "now" a good time to finally answer it??
In Christ,
bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob you are either lying at worst or being disingenuous at best. Please note the difference between your initial statement I questioned and your other version of that same statement. That is the reason I asked if this one of those instances where it all depends on what the meaning of is is?.
Initial statement by Bob Ryan, posted July 28, 2005 12:08 PM:
First revised statement by Bob Ryan, posted July 30, 2005 01:41 PM:
Next revised statement by Bob Ryan, posted July 31, 2005 11:07 PM:
The initial statement is obviously unintelligible as I initially noted!
Actually Bob you have misrepresented my post from the beginning. Therefore, I refuse to respond to any more of your falacious posts. I clearly stated in my post on the Multifaceted Gem of Salvation that the facets were not listed in chronological order [Salvation sequence chart, page 1, posted July 24, 2005 03:15 PM].
You have repeatedly questioned the constraints I placed on my post implying that I was a devious Calvinist. But then Seventh Day Adventism is based on works rather than faith, is it not?
Jarthur001
Active Member
Try this passage bob,
Romans 10
13 For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
******* anyone that calls...will be saved
14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
******* the order this happens...the preacher tells....sinner hears.....sinner understands....sinner has faith....sinner calls
15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!"
******* How can they preach unless they GO!! So this needs to be added to the order. The order is now...the preacher goes..the preacher tells....sinner hears....sinner understands....sinner has faith....sinner calls.
notice..the sinner does not come on his own. The preacher must go to him
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"
*****Still..in this order...some do not understand..even after they hear. If they do not understand...the next step can not come. Sinner must have his eyes opened to understand.
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
*****preacher goes...preacher tells.....sinner hears....sinner understands...sinner has faith.
18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
*****Have not all had a chance to HEAR? God has sent the elect to all the world..to share the gospel. indeed they have heard in some form. this is where your roms 2 comes in. Now a side point..the rea; point of the passage.."have you gone?"
19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry."
*****aaaaw now here is the point. did they understand? has the world been givin a chance to hear? Yes. God has reached out to the world in many ways. Did all understand? NO Did moses? Yes
Moses understood and placed his faith in God. Some of israel...Gods elect nation...did not place their faith in God. Its the understanding of the gospel that brings salvation. Holy Spirit brings the understanding. This is regeneration. Hearing my itself only blaims us. regeneration is needed to go on to faith in God.
20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me."
*****Isaiah was found with those that did not seek God. Who is this that Isaiah says does not seek God? ALL OF MANKIND. This is where God found Isaiah..meaning Isaiah was not seeking God either. How did isaiah have faith? God reached out to him.
21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.
******Israel..and all mankind is contrary to God....ALL DAY LONG God says come..but they do not. not till the preacher GOES...This is God reaching out.
In Christ..James
How can those predestined not to be elect do this?
Why do they need to "go"? Why are the feet of those who preach the good news beautiful? This proves that faith comes from hearing, and is not something "given". This also shows the need to evangelize, and not to do it "because God said so", and also the importance of telling everyone. If election as calvinism defines it were true, this would be negated because the "elect" can be nothing but the "elect".
This verse does not say some do not understand, but choose not to believe, there's a huge difference. You say the sinner must have his eyes opened to understand. That is correct. Who opens the sinner's eyes? Who are sinners? ALL men are sinners, and the Holy Spirit draws ALL men.
Can one choose to "not understand"? When I open the directions to put together a grill, I have the instructions right in front of me. I can read the word. If I do not want to read the direction thoroughly because I am lazy, is that me not understanding, or me refusing to understand?
Again, I ask...who does God reach out to, a selct group or ALL OF MANKIND? Who does Jesus say He will draw unto Him?
Amen!...and to who? ALL MANKIND!
Jarthur001
Active Member
How can those predestined not to be elect do this?
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webdog i have showed you before..you place predestined in the wrong order. Some how you can not see past this. Election happens 1st...
Why do they need to "go"? Why are the feet of those who preach the good news beautiful? This proves that faith comes from hearing, and is not something "given". This also shows the need to evangelize, and not to do it "because God said so", and also the importance of telling everyone. If election as calvinism defines it were true, this would be negated because the "elect" can be nothing but the "elect".
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Elction is part of Gods plan to win the lost. Man does not come..so God reached out and saved. Now the Holy Spirit lives in us...and we are to GO..and that is really who? GOD REACHING OUT again.
This verse does not say some do not understand, but choose not to believe, there's a huge difference. You say the sinner must have his eyes opened to understand. That is correct. Who opens the sinner's eyes? Who are sinners? ALL men are sinners, and the Holy Spirit draws ALL men.
Can one choose to "not understand"? When I open the directions to put together a grill, I have the instructions right in front of me. I can read the word. If I do not want to read the direction thoroughly because I am lazy, is that me not understanding, or me refusing to understand?
Again, I ask...who does God reach out to, a selct group or ALL OF MANKIND? Who does Jesus say He will draw unto Him?
Amen!...and to who? ALL MANKIND! </font>[/QUOTE]Amen again.
Webdog..for some reason when you hear elect...you think we no longer do anything. elect means God has choosen us...but not just for salvation...but choosen us to SHARE...and in that sharing...more elect are saved. Now who is the elect that are saved? i have no idea. I'm to go. God does not say....woo now..not that guy...go to the other guy. We share to all. God will lead others in our life...we need to share with them.
The elect could be any body...right? Only God Knows
Isn't that what reformers believe, that the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world? I still do not understand how someone chosen to be "elect" can be anything but.
Also, if we share salvation with all, those who were not chosen to be "elect" (even though we do not know who they might be) would be listening to us share with them something that is blatantly false and not true FOR THEM, making the plan of salvation a lie TO THEM. This makes the Bible a lie, and God a lie to the non-elect, because they were not chosen to be the elect. The truth is no longer the truth to them, only those "destined" to be the elect.
Why then does God command us to share with everyone? Because everyone has the same opportunity to partake in Christ's atonement by having faith in Him. If God predestined those to be elect, part of the "all" we are commanded to preach to CANNOT accept Christ, making salvation, God, the Bible, and the message we preach to them regarding eternal life a lie to the non elect.
Also, if we share salvation with all, those who were not chosen to be "elect" (even though we do not know who they might be) would be listening to us share with them something that is blatantly false and not true FOR THEM, making the plan of salvation a lie TO THEM. This makes the Bible a lie, and God a lie to the non-elect, because they were not chosen to be the elect. The truth is no longer the truth to them, only those "destined" to be the elect.
Why then does God command us to share with everyone? Because everyone has the same opportunity to partake in Christ's atonement by having faith in Him. If God predestined those to be elect, part of the "all" we are commanded to preach to CANNOT accept Christ, making salvation, God, the Bible, and the message we preach to them regarding eternal life a lie to the non elect.
Jarthur001
Active Member
predestined is....destiny know. it is about the TRIP. where we are going. The trip was planned before the world was formed. predestined means all on the train...will make it to heaven.
predestiny is not to be view as...those that are picked for the trip. election is the chooseing....predestiny is the trip. read all the passages on predestiny...and you will see election comes 1st...then comes predestiny
many from both side use this word wrong. I have told you many times...yet you keep posting the same thing.
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as to the other.....
If we share salvation with all, those who were not chosen to be "elect" (even though we do not know who they might be) would be listening to us share with them something that is blatantly false and not true FOR THEM, making the plan of salvation a lie TO THEM. This makes the Bible a lie, and God a lie to the non-elect, because they were not chosen to be the elect.
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Not at all. The call is to ALL. Up to the last day of mans life the offer of salvation is real..and God will saved if man comes. Yet..no one comes..till the preacher goes. We are the preacher. This is how God reaches out in the age of Grace.
Now you can see it as a lie..if you want. But calvinist do not. The call to Christ is real...He means it...and is to all the world.
In Christ...james
That was an utterly cofusing post. Election and predestination are the same thing, regardless. An elect cannot be predestined to be a non elect. If all men are predestined for SOMETHING, some then are predestined to be elect, and some are not predestined to be elect. I do not see how you get election as happening first.
God would be a liar if the call of salvation was to all, with only some having the ability to receive. I don't care how calvinists see it, this would be untruthful because those not determined to be elect CANNOT respond. How can there be an open invitation for all to come, if half are tied up? Calvinists do not see it as a lie, according to you, because it would destroy your belief system. If the call is to all, it is to all, not all of the elect.
If you are dying in a hospital bed and I tell you I have medicine that will cure you if you just reach out and take it, and you are a quadrapalegic, you cannot take it, regardless if you want it or not. Can the medicine do what I say it can do? Yes. Can you do the one thing that you need to do? No. Then my statement of receiving life through the medicine does not apply to you and is monsterous in even suggesting it.
God would be a liar if the call of salvation was to all, with only some having the ability to receive. I don't care how calvinists see it, this would be untruthful because those not determined to be elect CANNOT respond. How can there be an open invitation for all to come, if half are tied up? Calvinists do not see it as a lie, according to you, because it would destroy your belief system. If the call is to all, it is to all, not all of the elect.
If you are dying in a hospital bed and I tell you I have medicine that will cure you if you just reach out and take it, and you are a quadrapalegic, you cannot take it, regardless if you want it or not. Can the medicine do what I say it can do? Yes. Can you do the one thing that you need to do? No. Then my statement of receiving life through the medicine does not apply to you and is monsterous in even suggesting it.
Jarthur001
Active Member
webdog,
We both have said our peace on this many times. Lets just say we disagree. If you want to read more on this election + predestination John piper teaches this way.
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/85/101385p.html
I have not read this, but i trust John Piper. There may some ways we disagree, but i do not think it will be much on this subject. Anyway..read if you want..if not fine.
just for your info.
In Christ...James
BTW..it is not me that calls God a lair. My doctrine fits well with the Bible...without doing that. Other wise...do you think i would believe it?. maybe you do not see it..fine
We both have said our peace on this many times. Lets just say we disagree. If you want to read more on this election + predestination John piper teaches this way.
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/85/101385p.html
I have not read this, but i trust John Piper. There may some ways we disagree, but i do not think it will be much on this subject. Anyway..read if you want..if not fine.
just for your info.
In Christ...James
BTW..it is not me that calls God a lair. My doctrine fits well with the Bible...without doing that. Other wise...do you think i would believe it?. maybe you do not see it..fine