Regeneration ---- Then Faith

[Yelsew2]

YOU (QUOTED):Without the fleshly influences we would be unable to sin and without the Spiritual influences we would be unable to believe. Can we all agree with this?

NO! It is the spirit that is the root of sin, the flesh is the vehicle that commits the sin that the spirit allows.

It is the human spirit that disobeyed God in the Garden, and it remains the human spirit that controls (is the life of) the flesh. If the spirit is out of control, so is the flesh! The flesh does not "Control" the spirit, but the spirit is certainly influenced by the flesh. That is, the biological needs of the flesh place tremendous pressure on the spirit to allow the flesh to seek gratification. If the spirit allows it, the flesh gets its way. If the spirit does not allow it the flesh cannot act upon its own. The flesh obeys its master which is the spirit. The spirit that is Christ centered is controlled by the the teachings of the Christ, and the flesh has no choice but to do the bidding of the spirit.

Jesus told us that the spirit is the life of the flesh! Without the spirit the flesh dies. If the flesh dies the spirit departs to either, be with the Lord as Paul described, or to await judgment at the second resurrection.

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

YOU (QUOTED): In regard to your post concerning faith being a work let me respond.

It doesn't matter how you define faith. What matters is how the authors of the text defined it. Paul didn't equate faith as a work of the law. He set them in opposition to each other. So even if I concede to you that faith is a work of man, it is not "the works of the Law" to which Paul refered.

In the OT, the works of the law were required.
In the NT, faith is required.


ME: Much of the time the apostle Paul refers to "works" he CANT be referring to the "works of the law" (except in those specific instances when he uses that prase such as in Galations.) Why not? Because when Paul speaks of human works he uses Abraham as his example. Why is this relevant? Because Abraham PRECEDES the ten commandments...the ten commandments werent around yet, thus neither were the "works of the law!"

Here are a couple of examples of this in scripture, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2)

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, NOT OF WORKS, but of him that calleth" (Romans 9:11)

******Clearly in both of these cases the works referred to cant be that of the "works of the law" because the law was not yet in existence. Would it have been possible for Abraham to perform the works of something that had not yet come into existence? No. Further, James speaks of Abraham as being justified by "works" when he offered up his son Isaac, where is this written in the law??? Its not!****

******* So, since faith IS a work (see 1 Thes 1:3, and 2 Thes 1:11) and (if I undersand you correctly) you believe WE MUST PRODUCE IT it to go to heaven, how do you reconcile this with the following scriptures?*****

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:6)

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

"(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Romans 9:11)

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The definition of works is something we do.. plain and simple.

Take care,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

YOUon't you believe we should pursue righteousness by faith?

ME: God commands us to have faith in the gospel and we should. However, man doesnt get eternally saved by correctly understanding and having faith in the gospel. If that were the case, in order to be logically consistent one would have to conclude that all babies who die in infancy, the mentally handicap who cant understand, and those who havent heard the gospel go to Hell, correct?

The theif on the cross did not know the gospel in it's entirety yet Christ said "today you will be with me in paradise." John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost even when he was in his mother's womb, did he not? The Bible states, "and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15) Scripture tells us certain babies experienced spiritual birth (Ps 8:2, Ps 22:9, Mt 11:25, Mt 21:16, Lk 1:15, Lk 1:41) even though babies are incapable of receiving the preached word.

The only conclusion is that God regenerates sinners by his sovereign power independent of the gospel. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

When one believes the gospel it is evidence that he or she is born again not the means. Birth always precedes belief.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

 

[Yelsew2]

ME: God commands us to have faith in the gospel and we should.

Where is God's command to us to have faith in the gospel found in scripture?

 

[BrotherJoe]

Brother Skandelon,

YOU (ON THE 1 COR 2 PASSAGE):BTW, its quite revealing that you continue to ignore the fact that just a few verses following your proof text Paul speaks of the "bretherns" inability to receive these things either. I don't see how you think this is in regard to the natural man's inability to believe and be saved, afterall he does call them brethern despite their inability to receive it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ME: Just because he is writing to Christian brethern doesnt exclude the possibility that chapter 2 is referring to the gospel.

Paul had to reiterate in chapters 1-4 of Hebrews the gospel, "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat"(Hebrews 5:12) and " Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and OF FAITH TOWARD GOD, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment" (Hebrews 6:1-2)

Also, as you yourself know, Paul also wrote to the church of Galatia. That epistle is very important in discussing some of the basics of the gospel because the believers at the church of Galatia had gotten confused on this issue. Paul declares, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."

Finally, the book or Romans is written ", to those called to be saints" (Romans 1:7), yet Paul mentions the state of the unregenrated man in chapter 1 and also lays out basics of the gospel in the rest of that epistle.

Brother Joe

 

[Skandelon]

Joe,

As to the defination of faith as a work.

Do you believe that we are saved through works? You must because the scripture clearly teaches we are saved through faith. Regardless of its source or receipants, we are saved through faith, are we not? Therefore, by your defination, God has chosen us to be saved through a work. Period. Now are you sure you want to stick with that defination?

Works or deeds are outward actions, like feeding the poor. Faith is not a "work" in that way. It's not something you strive to accomplish, its merely surrender to truth.

More later, got to run.

 

[Yelsew2]

When one believes the gospel it is evidence that he or she is born again not the means. Birth always precedes belief.

That is, of course, what the doctrine of ELECTION teaches, and that is why that doctrine is WRONG!

Belief brings about Rebirth. It is when one's belief changes that change in one's life takes place. It is only through belief that one can be born again.

It works the same in secular circles as it does in "religious" circles. If you learn to believe in something strongly, you act out your belief in your life. Others see by your actions that change has taken place. That's the way that God made all mankind.

Belief first, then rebirth!

 

[Frogman]

It works the same way in secular life? OK.

I have three children, not one of them was real until conception and not one is my dependant today because I (or they) believe they are my children, but because they were born my children.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

It seems to me if you didn't believe they are your children you would not behave as their father.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
It seems to me if you didn't believe they are your children you would not behave as their father.

That is the beauty of it all Yelsew2. Your statement is true also, very true.

But this makes birth first (regeneration/faith) how could faith of three children in another's home make them my children? It cannot. Then it is by birth these three are my own and they then learn faith to believe I am their dad.

This too is how eternal life and conversion operates. Regeneration (birth by quickening of the Holy Spirit) Faith (by realizing through conversion your position in the family of God).

Amen.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

But not if they are in another's home as you say!

But then again, we are not talking of physical birth now are we. We are talking about spiritual rebirth, meaning that one has already had one birth and must experience another birth. It is this second birth that must come through belief because the spirit of man has already been born once and is alive, an un-redoable first birth Just as Jesus was telling Nicodemus. But in order to be born again, that human spirit must believe before it is born again. It is reborn on the basis of Knowledge provided by the Word of God.

The human spirit gets its knowledge via the physical senses of the host body of flesh. As knowledge is added to the mind of the human the spirit has more to work with in establishing it's character. When the Word of God is input by physical senses, the spirit is compelled to used that knowledge too, and it must do something with it. It must decide whether or not the Word of God is believeable, trustworthy, and profitable. The spirit then acts on the information and if the word of God is believed to be true, a Rebirth of the human spirit takes place. The result is that the spirit changes its control of the flesh and instead of producing the fruit of the flesh, causes the flesh to produce the fruit of the spirit in its everyday dealings.

Belief first, then rebirth!

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew2:
But not if they are in another's home as you say!

But then again, we are not talking of physical birth now are we. We are talking about spiritual rebirth, meaning that one has already had one birth and must experience another birth. It is this second birth that must come through belief because the spirit of man has already been born once and is alive, an un-redoable first birth Just as Jesus was telling Nicodemus. But in order to be born again, that human spirit must believe before it is born again. It is reborn on the basis of Knowledge provided by the Word of God.

The human spirit gets its knowledge via the physical senses of the host body of flesh. As knowledge is added to the mind of the human the spirit has more to work with in establishing it's character. When the Word of God is input by physical senses, the spirit is compelled to used that knowledge too, and it must do something with it. It must decide whether or not the Word of God is believeable, trustworthy, and profitable. The spirit then acts on the information and if the word of God is believed to be true, a Rebirth of the human spirit takes place. The result is that the spirit changes its control of the flesh and instead of producing the fruit of the flesh, causes the flesh to produce the fruit of the spirit in its everyday dealings.

Belief first, then rebirth!

yelsew2,
I do not have time to go into a lengthy discussion of this. The prodigal son is not a parable teaching the order of receiving eternal life, or else two seedism is proved by scripture.

The prodigal son, by the fact he is a son of the father is speaking being brought back to the father.

I will try to illustrate this one more time by my own three children. Each of these children are my children. They can be removed from my home, to a place where I am not their primary provider (because they will then be looking to that immediate environment), but this does not negate nor change the fact they are bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. They were, are and remain my children whether they sitting next to me at the dinner table or whether they are 100 miles from me squandering their inheritance and doing without bread from my table.

Regardless, they remain my children, isn't that plain enough?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

You speak as if you think I do not know what you are saying. I have known the biological reality of which you speak for longer than you've been breathing air.

The connection you continually miss is that we are born once in the flesh, and that which is flesh is flesh. We must also be born of the spirit, and Jesus said "whosoever believeth..." Why is that not good enough for you? From the Very Son of God and you will not accept it? Are you crazy?

 

[Frogman]

Whosoever beleiveth because they are/have been regenerated, yep

100% pure Word of God.

Suits me just fine.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Yelsew2]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Whosoever beleiveth because they are/have been regenerated, yep

100% pure Word of God.

Suits me just fine.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

You're not content unless you can modify the Gospel message from the truth of the scriptures.

 

[Frogman]

yelsew, tell me where Jesus ever told anyone how to be born again by the Holy Spirit?

Tell me.

bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

John 3:16

 

[Frogman]

Now prove by scripture that the 'world' is meaning what you imply it means (that this scripture is speaking to all men). Where is there a man that is a world, or a world that is a man?

I completely agree with saying whosoever comes to him will not perish but will have everlasting life. You can't even believe the last part of this passage, so how can you believe the first part, much less that it is speaking of all men?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew2]

Bro. Dallas, can I use any of the common to man definitions of "world"? If not which definition are you going to limit me to?

world, n.
1. the earth or globe, considered as a planet.
2. (often cap.) a particular division of the earth: the Western world.

3. the earth or a part of it, with its inhabitants, affairs, etc., during a particular period: the ancient world.

4. humankind; the human race; humanity: The world must eliminate war and poverty.

5. the public generally: The whole world knows it.

6. the class of persons devoted to the affairs, interests, or pursuits of this life: The world worships success.

7. a particular class of people, with common interests, aims, etc.: the fashionable world.

8. any sphere, realm, or domain, with all pertaining to it: a child's world; the world of dreams; the insect world.
9. everything that exists; the universe; the macrocosm.
10. any complex whole conceived as resembling the universe: the world of the microcosm.
11. one of the three general groupings of physical nature: animal world; mineral world; vegetable world.
12. any period, state, or sphere of existence: this world; the world to come.
13. Often, worlds. a great deal: That vacation was worlds of fun.
14. any indefinitely great expanse.
15. any heavenly body: the starry worlds.

16. bring into the world,
a. to give birth to; bear: My grandmother brought nine children into the world.
b. to deliver (a baby): the doctor brought many children into the world.
17. come into the world, to be born: Her first child came into the world in June.

18. for all the world,
a. for any consideration, however great: She wouldn't come to visit us for all the world.
b. in every respect; precisely: You look for all the world like my Aunt Mary.
19. in the world,
a. at all; ever: I never in the world would have believed such an obvious lie.
b. from among all possibilities: Where in the world did you find that hat?
20. on top of the world. See top 1 (def. 25).
21. out of this or the world, exceptional; fine: The chef prepared a roast duck that was out of this world.
22. set the world on fire, to achieve great fame and success: He didn't seem to be the type to set the world on fire.
23. think the world of, to like or admire greatly: His coworkers think the world of him.
24. world without end, for all eternity; for always.

 

[Frogman]

Just prove by scripture that the word world is meaning all men in accordance to your understanding of the purpose of the Atonement.

That will be sufficient.

AS I said, I have no problem with agreeing that all who come to Christ will receive eternal life, I will even declare this eternal life cannot be removed from any one of those individuals.

Bro. Dallas