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Featured Reparations

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. Shoostie

    Shoostie Active Member

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    For those wishing to find biblical grounds for looting from the innocent and giving money to non-victims, the Bible condones slavery.
     
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    No,

    We’re attempting to discern what 5he Scripture principle is concerning reparations.


    The social, political, or emotional issues are to be set aside so that scripture principles concerning if, when, how,... reparations are found in Scriptures and then how that may be taught to the assembly as a principle to form decisions.

    Too that end, the OP and post #16 quote extensively from a well known Gospel Coalition author to jump start the thread.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    But the thread isn’t about making policy.

    The thread is finding Scripture principles in which to give to the assembly in which they may discern policies that are or are not Scriptural.

    Too often on a wide range of topics, the decision of policy is based on emotional appeal rather than principle.

    Do you not consider that discerning the principle of Scripture would make for declaration from a believer when discussing a policy?

    This is why the thread is so narrowly focused.

    What Scriptures can be a guide?

    Does the writing posted in the OP and #16 stand, or is it inappropriately used and other Scriptures gave a more supported principle?
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Do you find the Scriptures opposed to reparations in light of the OP and post #16?

    Or do you find the Scriptures silent on the topic of reparations?

    What principle(s) do the Scriptures present in which the assembly may use as a guide through the emotionalism and evil influence in discerning what is righteous concerning this topic?
     
  5. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Got ya! The article cited in post # 16 is from Rev. Thabiti Anyabwile of the Washington DC Anacostia River Church, whose website does not say what they believe. He pins everything in the article cited on Ezra 1-6, which is somewhat opaque because it deals with a war and a peace settlement. Also, the time period is only 70 years whereas African slavery was introduced in the new world in the 16th century I think. So it would be impossible to go back over 500 years as no records would exist. Also, the US slaves were freed in the 19th century, and again the records are inaccurate. Ezra would know who was a Jew and who was not so his job was very clear. So in the case of American slavery which ended 155 years ago, it is impossible to identify the slave holders and the slaves so that reparations could be made. Again, I personally do not think that Ezra is a clear guide for the Gospel Coalition since the Jews were taken captive as a result of a war but allowed to go home after 70 years and were given some provisions by their captors. However, the second temple was not as nice as the first one, so how can this be a clear example?

    Also, in the US case, Americans did not conquer the slaves as the Jews were conquered. Americans purchased the slaves from others. So how would you calculate what is due? It would seem that those who sold the African slaves into the US gained a lot of money and that they should also have to pay reparations but how would you go back 500 years on all of that?
     
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  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps I should present my own opinions concerning the biblical principle.

    I don’t find (and I certainly may be wrong) that the Scriptures separate reparations from repatriation. Rather they are inseparable.

    This was seen in the Exodus. “Let my people go” was coupled with provision to journey to another place.

    It was seen in Ezra, people returned with provision.

    This was seen in the case of Paul and Philemon.

    This is seen in the return of Christ as He brings His Kingdom to earth for the millennial reign.

    It is seen by the final estate of the believers in that prepared place.

    This is TOTALLY MY OPINION, and not to be taken as established principle.

    Far more locking into the actual Scriptures is necessary.


    That is why this thread is necessary.
     
  7. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    What if the slavery has been so long that the slave does not know where he was from?
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Does a slave ever forget their original home?

    What of the unreturned care of the wounded who was best upon by thieves?

    Does that present a reparation principle?

    Just wondering the believer’s salvation?

    Does that have reparation involvement?
     
  9. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    OK, I’ll play your politically laced “non-political” game for a moment. But before you pooh-pooh it, try comparing it to your own posting first and think about the implications.

    1. Darius was not God. Did God order Darius to decree the taxation? No.

    2. Are “state actors” God? No, nor is a democratic republic a monarchy.

    3. What prophecies have been made concerning general return/reparations? None.

    4. Darius was arranging for the Israelites to return to their original state. Who wants to be “shipped back” to live at the same level of subsistence as their ancestors centuries ago? Best guess: None.

    Again, this issue is moot in the context of American slavery, which is the precise context of the article. It is completely political. Today, many people are risking their lives for a chance to live in America with less advantage and privilege than citizen minorities. The “woke” need to wake up and start working on what really needs addressing.
     
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  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You make some good points concerning the prophets and Darius.

    Although the author is siding with reparation thinking, I also consider he has stretched the Scriptures inappropriately.

    Because he is focused upon principle building, and did so, (imo) doing disservice to the Scripture presentation, yet knowing this issue in the states is more emotion driven then principals taken from Scripture, I sought other’s wisdom to formulate the principles.

    Do you find any Scriptures showing reparations without repatriation?

    Wasn’t the Jewish 7th year aligned with both reparation and repatriation as an inseparable unit, unless one was contented to remain in servitude?
     
  11. OnlyaSinner

    OnlyaSinner Active Member
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    That's just part of my issues with using Ezra in that manner.
    Also, I see a difference between Biblical passages that are descriptive and those that are prescriptive. Ezra, as concerning the actions of a pagan king, is descriptive. Whether those events qualify as reparations, repatriations or both, they merely describe one incident (as you have noted) and I see no biblical commands to "go and do likewise."

    Beyond that, the Babylonian captivity was very clearly God's judgment on the Jews for their apostasy, idolatry and their not obeying the 7th-year sabbath requirement of leaving their fields fallow that year. (I've heard preachers say that the 70-year exile equaled all the sabbath years not practiced by the Jews.) The Bible has no such record of slavery (as practiced in North America, among other places) being God's judgment on a particular ethnic/racial people. Thus the events recounted by Ezra do not, IMO, provide any biblical guidance for the current reparations discussion in the US (or anywhere else.)
     
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  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    There were black slave owners. Are blacks going to obtain reparations from themselves?
     
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  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    interesting observation about the descriptive and proscriptive passages.

    Can principles not ever be aligned with descriptive passages of what is not proscriptive?
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not certain this question pertains to a thread on principle rather than policy.

    However, considering your question, would it need to discern if the Scriptures present Jews paying reparations to Jews?

    Wasn’t that done when one tribe nearly wiped out another?
     
  15. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I doubt if many American blacks know what country they came from.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps not, but that really isn’t the concern of the tread.

    The assembly should develop some scripture based principles from which to engage discernment of policy.

    The thread seeks something of a more solid basis then the article author presents.
     
  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    You just said that everyone knew what country they came from and that the idea of reparations was repatriation also in your opinion so of course it is concerning the thread or you would not have raised the subject, but I am glad that you concede that after 500 years some people might not know where their ancestors lived before the Muslim slave traders captured them or purchased them from others and sold them overseas.
     
  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If you are saying "reparations" is unbiblical, we agree.
     
  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Why?
     
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