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Featured Researching apostles...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by awaken, Apr 4, 2013.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    THis I agreed with! As I stated in my op..."The Twelve were a distinct group, but not the only apostles"

    Can you give scriptures to show how you come up with that?

    So Ephesians 4 is not speaking about the 12?

    So Paul was just a messenger? Who are the other 4? Please give scripture to back up your stand..otherwise it comes across as just an opinion!

    Scripture please!

    Again, without scripture to back up what you claim...it is just your opinion!

    Anti-christ are just what it says...against Christ! You are not against Christ if you believe in apostles today!
     
    #21 awaken, Apr 5, 2013
  2. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Really?? I just see a lot of opinions and half of the OP ignored! No one has given scriptures to back up there theories!
     
    #22 awaken, Apr 5, 2013
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Now you are just not being honest.
     
    #23 Revmitchell, Apr 5, 2013
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Maybe if we can figure out Eph. 4 ???

    The apostolic age is an assumption that supports the theological position that miracles, tongues, the power of God, apostles, prophets, the gifts of the Spirit, the leading of God's Spirit, and many other things are no longer available to the church.

    Eph. 4:11-13 The apostles will be here until we all come to the unity of the faith. Are we there yet?
    And the knowledge of the Son fo God to a perfect (tolally complete and mature) man. Are we there yet?
    To the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Are we there yet?

    There is nothing in the Bible about the apostolic age except the word, "Til," in Eph. 4. Til means UNTIL and would seem to limit the apostles to a certain time period when all those things mentioned above are accomplished.

    With that in mind...I feel like we still need apostles for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...Just as the Word of God says!
     
    #24 awaken, Apr 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2013
  5. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Address Eph. 4 as my last post states! No one has addressed it!
    And you can quit with the name calling (dishonest person)...it really does not add to the debate..just proves you have no scriptures to back up your theory!
     
    #25 awaken, Apr 5, 2013
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I do not need to address Eph 4. My original post where I posted scripture and showed that you are wrong. So you claim I have no scripture only opinion is blatantly false and dishonest.
     
    #26 Revmitchell, Apr 5, 2013
  7. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Eph. 4 Contradicts your theory! I addressed your post!
    YOu said they had to witness the resurrection...Paul was not there when Christ resurrected! He did see the risen Lord in a bright light, but saw no man!

    You limit Jesus! Where does it say in scripture that He will not call others as he did Paul? You can not prove that in scripture!
     
    #27 awaken, Apr 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2013
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You still maintain your unbelief in the Bible, or
    your belief that the Bible contradicts itself. Which is it?

    1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
     
    #28 DHK, Apr 5, 2013
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Still being dishonest I see. I will leave you to your misery.
     
    #29 Revmitchell, Apr 5, 2013
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Apostle John died ca. 102 A.D. I have tried to tell you that before.
    This is what history tells us, verifying the end of the Apostolic Age at the end of the first century.
    Just as the Apostles died at the end of the first century history also verifies that no one spoke in this pagan gibberish that you speak in until 1905 when the modern Charismatic Movement began. Its historical roots are found in paganism; it is not of God. Thus, you won't find it in the Bible. And you don't find true Biblical gift of speaking in languages in history, except in Biblical times.
     
    #30 DHK, Apr 5, 2013
  11. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    How does Acts describe what He saw? Yes, it was Jesus..but he saw "no man" He saw a bright light!
    You limit Him to doing things that you can grasp in your little brain! He is much bigger than that!
     
    #31 awaken, Apr 5, 2013
  12. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    In other words..you can not address Eph. 4 without throwing your theory out the window!
     
    #32 awaken, Apr 6, 2013
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Without biblical support, this fivefold list of ordained ministries from Ephesians 4:11 has been separated by most.

    Most accept the evangelist, pastor, and teacher as being valid ministries for the church today. But the ministries of apostles and Christian prophets are kept in the first-century church!


    If you look close at Eph. 4 you will see that they are “ascension gifts” He gave them after he ascended they are still needed in the Church today. The “perfecting of the saints” intended by the Lord (Ephesians 4:12) will require all five of these ministry gifts given by the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:11).
     
    #33 awaken, Apr 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 6, 2013
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't care right now about what you think that passage says.
    You made a direct allegation that Paul does not meet the requirements of an Apostle because he never saw the risen Lord.
    You have made him a liar.
    You have made yourself a liar.
    You have called into question the veracity of the Bible.

    The Bible's testimony of Paul; Paul's own testimony is: "Christ was seen of me also."
    But apparently you still deny that Paul saw the risen Lord.
    You don't believe what the Bible says.
    It seems that I should ask you if you really are saved, when you deny such direct statements of one seeing the risen Lord. What do you think?
     
    #34 DHK, Apr 6, 2013
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    You are so good at twisting someones words...
    I know Paul was an apostle! THe Word of God says he was!
    Men set the requirements of an aposste to walking with John the Baptist until his resurrection. Seeing the resurrected Jesus.
    Paul was not with John the Baptist.
    He did see the resurrected Jesus in the form of a light.

    Man limits God to only doing it once.
    Who are we to say God can not do it again!
    No where in scripture does it limit God the way man wants to limit Him!
    The same thing that happen to Paul can happen to anyone Jesus chooses! The Word of God did not set this limit...man did!

    How are we called into any ministry today?
    Whether apostles, prophet, evagelist pastors or teachers?

    As I have stated several times...but NO ONE has addressed is the fact that these gifts that is recorded in Eph. 4 was given to the church for the perfecting of the saints! THEY WERE GIVEN AFTER JESUS ASCENDED!

    So he called apostles into this ministry after his resurrection too. Paul being one of them!

    Just to throw this out there....more than just the apostles manifested signs and wonders!
     
    #35 awaken, Apr 6, 2013
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why do you continue to deny the clear testimony of Scripture and of Paul, right to the extent of calling Paul a liar.

    1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

    Paul says he saw the risen Lord, not a light, but the risen Lord.
    You are making a liar out of Paul.
    I can take you to many Scriptures where Paul saw the Lord at various times in his life. If he saw the Lord, the Lord was risen. It was not a dead Christ that he was seeing. Why do you call his testimony into question and thus infer he is lying?

    Do you believe we should do the same thing to you and call your testimony into question?
    What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
     
    #36 DHK, Apr 6, 2013
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    As Saul travels to Damascus at midday, he experiences the divine presence: a light from heaven flashing around him and a voice addressing him (compare 7:31/Ex 3:4-10). The descent from Mt. Hermon to Damascus in the plain goes through a region known for violent electrical storms. Though this flashing light may have had the effects of lightning, however, it was a supernatural midday phenomenon.

    Saul and his traveling companions see the light, but Saul sees more: the risen Lord Jesus in all his resplendent glory (9:17, 27; 22:14; 26:16; 1 Cor 9:1; 15:8). So overwhelming is the sight that Saul falls to the ground (compare Ezek 1:28; Dan 8:17). The sound or voice probably reminds him of the bat-qol ("daughter of the voice"), the way pious Jews believed God had directly communicated with human beings since the gift of prophecy had ceased with Malachi (Longenecker 1981:370). But the divine presence creates confusion for Saul, for if God is speaking with him, who is this heavenly figure addressing him?

    The voice gives the divine perspective on Paul's activity. With a repeated address (compare Gen 22:11; Ex 3:4; 1 Sam 3:10; Lk 10:41; 22:31) the voice asks, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Jesus identifies with his disciples, his body (see Lk 10:16; Acts 1:1; 9:1; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). In doing so he reveals that Saul's teacher Gamaliel's worst fears have materialized (Acts 5:39).

    Saul grapples with his dawning realization that his life, though lived in zeal for the one true God even to the point of persecuting the church, has in reality been one of "ignorance in unbelief" (1 Tim 1:13). Through the question "why?" he begins to see that in proving his commitment to God by persecuting the church, he has actually been proving himself an enemy of God. As Saul deeply considers that "why?" and accepts the divine perspective on his actions, his whole spiritual world will be turned upside down. What was gain will become loss (Phil 3:6-9). What was a badge of honor will become a lifelong shameful blot on his character (1 Cor 15:9; 1 Tim 1:13, 15).

    Out of his confusion, Saul calls, Who are you, Lord? Is he simply addressing the heavenly being with respect (Marshall 1980:169), or is he for the first time confessing Jesus as his Lord (compare Rom 10:9-10; 1 Cor 12:3; Kistemaker 1990:332)? His inquiry about the person's identity may indicate the former. He receives a divine disclosure in the clear reply, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting." Jesus of Nazareth is risen from the dead! Stephen was telling the truth when he bore witness to the Son of Man standing at God's right hand (Acts 7:56). Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior, the Lord (9:20, 28).

    Immediately Jesus issues a divine demand that requires Saul's trust and obedience. In the city he will learn what he must do to fulfill God's purposes (compare 9:16; 14:22).

    Saul's companions probably include a number of wayfarers banded together in a caravan for protection against the hazards of the journey, as well as temple police to aid Saul in his work (Lake and Cadbury 1979:101; Bruce 1988:185). At this encounter they stand speechless, hearing a voice or the sound of a voice but not understanding the words (9:7/22:9). They do not see Jesus, though they see the light (22:9).

    Note that last paragraph. The lost hear a sound and see a light but can't understand the sound or identify the light. They were lost, and "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God."

    Only the saved could understand the voice and identify the person. The same is true today. If you see Jesus and not just a light, you are saved. If you understand His words rather than just hearing sounds, you are saved. If not, you are lost. :)
     
    #37 TCassidy, Apr 6, 2013
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I do not deny that Paul had an encounter with our risen Savior! What I have a problem with is man's limitation where God does not put limitation! You limit him to a one person...one encounter! I Do not limit God! I say what he did once he can do again! WHO ARE WE TO SAY HE CAN NOT!
     
    #38 awaken, Apr 6, 2013
  19. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    That is great...many lessons that can come out of the same scriptures. But it does not prove or disprove apostles for today!
     
    #39 awaken, Apr 6, 2013
  20. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    So, what in your mind would be the purpose of a "modern apostle"?
     
    #40 Thomas Helwys, Apr 6, 2013
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