Rom 5:15-17

HP: , so they preached salvation by works in the OT??

HP: Yes, salvation is by God's Gods grace, made possible by the atoneing work of Jesus on the cross, and made effective in our individual lives as we repent, exercise faith, and live in obedience to God's Word.

The grounds of our salvation is the grace and mercy of God expressed in the shed blood of Jesus, but the atonement alone does not save just as grace or mercy alone does not save. God has attached conditions for receiving salvation, without which no one will be saved. If you are saved, you have fulfilled those conditions regardless of your theology that denies any such conditions. By do so you did nothing meritorious, nothing that would necessitate God saving you on account of anything you or I have done or will do. All requirements by God are thought of in the sense of 'not without which,' just as in the prison illustration a change of heart is necessary for a just pardon. A change of heart does not force a governor to pardon a convicted criminal but neither will a pardon be justly granted apart from a change of heart towards ones crime. When a prisoner has a change of heart, he does not merit a pardon by any stretch of the imagination, nor could one say that a pardon is a pardon by works. If a pardon is granted it is by the grace of the governor and not by works.

Such is much the same in salvation. We could never repent or obey enough to cleanse ourselves for the least stain of sin, and therefore cannot 'work' for our pardon from God by repentance or faith. There still are some requirements set forth by God we must fulfill, 'without which' no man shall receive the hope of eternal life in this world.

 

Who cares about "superiority" here? That is really a humanistic perspective, not a God perspective.

Deu 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The scripture is clear that this is a choice God gives us. If you do a word study on Choice, you will see that this is one of (if not the only) choice God gives us - and that there are only two choices - and that we are told which one to choose.

 

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

In order to make us free from the law, the law must be fulfilled. Many think that fulfilling the law means keeping the law, but you can also fulfill the law by breaking the law and recieving the penalty for breaking it... that is also a fulfillment of the law. The law says "do not sin and live, or sin and die." Both are a fulfillment.

The law MUST be fulfilled in us. We have sinned, and therefore we die. But we are made alive again in Christ. Romans 7 Paul describes a woman who is free from the law binding her to her husband when the husband dies. Similarly, when the law is fulfilled in us by our death, we become free from the law - it has been fulfilled. The law no longer has any jurisdiction over us because we are dead. The problem then becomes one of "resurrection." How do we come back to life after we have died. That is where Christ comes in:

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,​

As to Enoch - the Bible says in Romans 5:13 says that sin is not imputed when there is no law. The law did not come until the time of Moses, and until the law of Moses, the only law was not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil (Rom 5:14).

As for Elijah, salvation by grace through faith was instituted in Genesis 15 (430 years before the law - Gal 3:17) when Abraham was counted righteous for his faith in Jesus Christ (Gal 3-4 & Rom 4). My guess is this is what saved Elijah.

 

The scripture clearly says the justification is NOT like the offense, so you can't draw that direct correlation.

 

Now you're just being nasty. The fact is I commented on your post which said.

Which logically concludes you believe the opposit to be true which is no less than men being saved against their wills. BTW I believe Adam had a choice to accept death or not when God said

that was clearly a given choice.

Adam knew the consiquence of his decision and he still made a decision for death.

Obvioulsy, you are wrong. God doesn't have to offer the gift. Neither does man have to accept it.

You've out used your quoata for the word Gospel. Obviously, you have some trouble with the Gospel. Ref. Matt 25:31-46.

Peter's exhortation certainly means they can choose to be saved or not. This passage is very clear.

I have not hidden what I believe. I've put it out there entirely. You reveal you have a hidden agenda by suggesting I have something to hide. I don't. I am clear.
riddling your accusations with inappropiate suggestions and insults reveal your clear intention.

 

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

The Bible clearly classifies what we believe as faith, and that what we believe (faith) is not a work.

How do we choose life as we are commanded to do in Deuteronomy 30? By our belief. Faith is not a work as you suppose.

 

HP: It is not a sin to be born human even after the fall. God holds no man accountable for any sin but their own...according to Scripture that is. Read Ezekiel 18

 

There is no conflict because faith is not a work.

Rom 1:5 says "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations". It does not say that faith is obedience, or that faith is a work... it says they have submitted to (been obedient to) their faith. In fact, by the very wording here, Obedience and Faith must be two different things, otherwise the verse would mean you receive grace by obedience to obedience which makes no sense. Faith is what you believe... obedience to the faith is limiting your actions to conform to your belief... therefore Rom 1:5 must necessarily mean that obedience and faith are not the same thing.

More likely, it is similar to what James says

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?​

In fact, James himself defines faith as "what you believe" and says that it is distinct and separate from works:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​

Here James says it isn't enough that you just have faith (what you believe) because even the devils believe in God... but he says that your actions demonstrate your faith. James is not advocating that works saves, he's saying that if you have faith - if you believe - then it must necessarily affect your works, otherwise it is demonstrated that you do not truly have faith... that you do not truly believe. Faith saves, and works demonstrate faith. Faith and works are distinct and separate concepts.

Paul agrees:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Paul makes a distinction as well between faith and works. The Galatians were arguing that Gentiles needed to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses. Paul made the point that their salvation did not come by works, but by faith.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.​

Here again Paul makes a distinction between faith and works, and equates faith with belief.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;​

Here again Paul draws a distinction between faith and works, and even says they could have attained righteousness if they (not God) had sought it by faith.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Yet again Paul sets works and faith as distinct and different, and yet once again equates faith with believing.

It is overwhelmingly clear that faith is not a work.

That it is a command doesn't make it a work. For example, God could give us a choice (lets say the choice is life or death) and then command us to choose between them. He may even tell us which one to choose if we know what's good for us (He surly does).

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:​

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.​

The false Gospel - the perversion that Paul is speaking about in Galatians - are those who equate faith with works as the Galatians, and you SBM, are doing. Paul says no, they are distinct and different. You do not attain salvation by works, but rather by faith of, or belief in, Jesus Christ.

I encourage you to study Galatians. Paul defines the two covenants - the law (works) and the promise (faith) - in Galatians 3 & 4:

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. (see Genesis 15-17)
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (See Genesis 15-17)
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.


Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
​

All of this is paralleled in Romans 3 and 4:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;​

SBM, my friend if you believe that faith is a work, then you truly believe "another gospel" and are in serious danger of the curse mentioned in Galatians 1.

 

Answer this question, SBM - does Romans 5:12 say death is passed, or does it say sin is passed? It CLEARLY says "and so death is passed upon all men".

The consequences for Adam's sin was that death entered the world. We all die because of that death, but the Bible says all have sinned. Therefore, when we die, we are guilty of our own sin and are therefore guilty of the death we inherit from Adam (Ezekiel 18 says sin doesn't pass from generation to generation). Jesus was resurrected because he was the first to NOT be guilty of sin when he experienced death.

If sin is passed rather than death is passed, then Jesus would have inherited the sin of Adam and would not have been a sinless man when he died. But Romans 5:12 is clear - it is death that is passed, not sin. Death is here because of sin, and death reigned over those who did not commit sin between Adam and Moses, even though there was no law and sin is not imputed when there is no law (and they couldn't break the law Adam did not to eat from the tree). Therefore it is clear that death is inherited and passed on, not sin.

 

Perhaps this sheds light on where you have gone astray. "Works" is not defined in scripture as "things that man does." The Bible clearly makes a distinction - "Works of the law".

So "Works" isn't anything that we do, "works" only pertains to those parts of the law (of Moses) that we perform.

But faith is not part of the law - righteousness by faith was instituted 430 years prior to the law of Moses:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.​

Abraham believed God when God told him the Gospel of Jesus Christ and was made righteous by that faith. That happened 430 years before Moses was given the law. Works isn't "anything we do" it is "following the law of Moses."

 

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.​

Even the passage in Ephesians refers to salvation by grace through faith as a covenant of promise. A covenant has agreed upon responsibilities for both sides. Galatians speaks of the two covenants - faith and the law.