Roman Catholic Atrocities

RL,
The newadvent article is outdated. Information on the Spanish Inquisition that is more up-to-date is available, documented from actual records of the inquisition by professional historians. It's one of the best documented events of history. I know of three writers on it. Henry Kamen started writing histories of the Spanish Inquisition shortly out of college. He wrote a revised version as new documentation came out and what he had earlier written was incorrect. Finally, he wrote a new book.

Modern documentation shows how the myth of the Spanish Inquisition began. "Serious historical studies in the 20th Century have debunked these myths, but they continue to persist in popular imagination." (article by Robert P. Lockwood)

Kamen's last book has a final chapter in it on how the myth of the Spanish Inquisition got started -- due largely to political reasons by enemies of Spain. Plus some religious reasons from opponents of the Catholic Church. Put those two together in certain countries and you have an outpouring of some real propaganda.

See also: Inquisition by Edward Peters, U of California Press, 1989 on the "myth". And the book by Hensingson and another man that tells of their study of under 43,000 cases tried by the Spanish Inquisition, about one-half the cases tried over the 140 years it was most active. About 2% of the cases ended in execution. The Spanish Inquisition was government-controlled aimed at converso Jews and the counterpart Muslims. "The image of a Spanish Inquisition burning hundreds of thousands of Protestant heretics has no basis in historical fact." (Lockwood).

The popes did not control the Spanish Inquisition. But they did protest "its unfair treatment of the conversos with little result."

Pauline

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

Michael,
You say the numbers you've posted are not exaggerated.

You posted the figure 50,000 Anabaptists put to death by the Catholic Church because they wouldn't baptize infants. I asked if you know how many people resided in Europe during the dark ages. I haven't seen your answer yet. If you have posted an answer, please direct me to it.

I say the numbers you have posted are grossly exaggerated. I say they aren't actual figures at all but rather are prejudice expressed in numeral form. And you have taken up these wild accusations written by other anti-Catholics and made them your own. So tell me, which is the most valuable to you: honest facts or anti-Catholic prejudice.

Please tell me about the good that the Catholic Church accomplished over the ages. Tell me what you owe to the Catholic Church.
Then balance it off with honest challenges on the faults of representatives of the Church. Then you will begin to build a case of some merit.

Pauline

 

Pauline, would you edit your post on the Catholic League site? It has a typo that keeps it from linking. Thanks.

 

RL,
Sorry about that. I got the information from a magazine article which listed the website so I posted it. Then later I clicked on it and it wouldn't work.

In the magazine it is listed as:
www.catholicleague.org

I hope this works. The article was entitled The Black Legend. It was in the April 2001 issue of the Catholic League's publication. All I have is a torn out portion of the magazine.

Pauline

 

I will add my objection to this thread behind Mr Vaughn, James2 and Ps 104_33. The actions of individuals cannot be viewed as represenative of the entire group. We have plenty to debate with our Catholic friends here without slinging mud. They may very well find some rocks to sling back!

May God bless you

- Clint

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Thanks for fixing that, Pauline. I figured out how to get there, but some people are probably not as persistent as I am.

Further, I'd like to point out that I mentioned that I believe that the Catholic Church did persecute, not to be "anti-Catholic", but to be honest about what I think and then put into perspective what I was saying about the sexual sins issue. I think I put that plainly enough - there are TOO MANY sexual offenses committed by leaders in all denominations (not to mention the members). It simply is not a Catholic vs. Protestant issue.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:


The truth often hurts and offends, but it is still the truth. Addiction? The only addiction I've seen is the RCC addiction over many centuries to spilling the blood of countless millions who dared oppose their Satanic despotism.


The sexual problem among Catholic clergy is a direct result of the unbiblical and demonic RCC policy of forced celibacy of priests.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Satanic"? "demonic"?

Mike, it may be wise to be more judicious in your choice of words.

If indeed, the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, you might find them problematic when you stand before the Throne.


"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." Matthew 15:11

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TP:
Greetings,

Fox book of Martyrs is historical garbage, no repuptable historian would use it.

As far as clergy sexual abuse: this is not just a catholic problem. See this site: www.shasta.com/sphaws/pastors.html

Peace<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rats! You beat me to it!

Go show, father!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
TP and Pauline,

The sexual problem among Catholic clergy is a direct result of the unbiblical and demonic RCC policy of forced celibacy of priests.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you go back and click on the link TP provided above.

Also, take a gander at this one:

http://catholicleague.org/research/silence_of_sodom.html#The%20Silence%20of%20Sodom

And while you are at it, look through that site, the Catholic League, and note a lot more material that smashes the usual lies and smears against the Catholic Church.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: WPutnam ]

 

RL,
I finally got to the article too and found it under April 2001. It's okay but the books by Kamen and Hensingson (Sp?) are much better. Thanks for letting me know I'd posted the site inaccurately. I deleted it from the first post. I do want you to know I greatly appreciate your charitable and fair attitude.

I don't mind non-Catholic Christians pointing out the sins of Catholics. We certainly have plenty of them. And I could probably name more sins by Catholics than Protestants on this board could. And I do talk about those sins (with names and dates) to people studying to enter the Catholic Church. I do not want them to become Catholic with an unrealistic view of us. At the same time, if non-Catholics are just as guilty of the same sins, honesty is going to say so, as you did on the subject of sexual sins.

And, if the Catholic Church did good and accomplished things beneficial to people in earlier years or even down to today, then honesty is going to say that too. I wonder how many non-Catholics on this board can name three outstanding accomplishments of the Catholic Church that still benefit our lives today.

I do protest the gross exaggeration and off balance, prejudiced presentation of those sins. And a non-historical view. By the latter, I mean failing to take into account the conditions under which people lived in earlier years and which shaped their societies and why they thought and lived as they did.

Take a look at that time in history in which the fuss between Protestants and Catholics was going on, starting with Wycliff. Can you name one country that did not believe that treason was a crime punishable by death? And, can you name one country that did not believe promotion of a different religion than the accepted one was treason. So then, a question: Was there reason for them to have this view within the context of their time in history? What kind of a threat to society was the "heresy"? And, if every one had this view, why single out the Catholic Church as the "evil" one?

Then bring the historical facts down to some similiar thing today. How would we feel? For example: Contracts are pretty important today. For people who have contracts on buying their homes, cars, investments, church buildings, wages, etc., -- what would it mean if all contracts were nullified and no longer held any force of legal meaning? How would we react to people who are holding such contracts null and void. Just let them go about it? Or what?

Do non-Catholic Christians today think any kind of lawlessness should be tolerated? Should we let people who are commited to fornication, abortion, infanticide, suicide, euthanasia (including involuntary euthanasia -- murder), just go on about their ways? Or, should the legal system of our day get involved?

And what about a government taking over and owning all church buildings and all other properties/possessions owned by church groups? What about the government forbidding pastors to be paid or own anything? What about the government saying who is fit to be a pastor and who isn't?

You've probably heard the saying, a Christian who doesn't know history is like a leaf without a tree" - from Cardinal Newman, I believe.

Pauline

 

Clint,
Thank you too for your charitable and fair post.

Pauline

 

My question was not answered. What do I tell people I am witnessing to when I get this thrown in my face. And anybody who lives in Massachusetts can tell you that this pedophilic nightmare is alive and well, showing up often in our papers.

 

Sorry, Pauline. I saw your post only after posting the above comment.

This is a problem. It was thrown up in my face while witnessing, over the weekend. I don't appreciate trying2understand's responses, & that kind of talk only strengthens my belief that most Catholics will not admit there is a problem here.

I was left speechless when that woman yelled these things at me. Perhaps it was best that I didn't say anything. We Christians can yell at each other all we want on this board, & I am willing to have insults hurled at me, but my belief is that outside of this forum we really should try to put spreading the gospel first. Not have to defend our beliefs against this issue, which keeps coming up, again & again. I am not exagerating, look for yourself.

There is a problem. Calling me an internet addict does not change that. Or porn addict, or whatever he did call me.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:


There is a problem. Calling me an internet addict does not change that. Or porn addict, or whatever he did call me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This sort of thing is why I find you not credible. Anyone, including yourself, can easily go back and see what I actually said. You chose not to do so and instead posted a version at variance with the truth.

Apparently that is close enough for you.

For that reason, when you report on the rampant sexual abuses of the Catholic clergy currently going on in your part of the country and being reported "daily" in the newspapers, I may in good conscience, simply dismiss you and your testimony.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:

This is a problem. It was thrown up in my face while witnessing, over the weekend. I don't appreciate trying2understand's responses, & that kind of talk only strengthens my belief that most Catholics will not admit there is a problem here.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have not yet addressed the evidence that sexual sin is a more common problem among non-Catholic ministers. Perhaps after you recognize the problem in your own backyard, we may find an appropriate response to your hypothetical scenario.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:


The fundi version of porno. Too bad your parents don't buy a filter to protect you from your addiction.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: trying2understand ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This isn't an insult ?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:

This isn't an insult ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bait and switch.

Please, go back and try again.

Hint: You attributed words to me which were not mine. That is the core of the problem: your veracity.

 

I'm already tired of this game t2u. If you want to talk to me, then talk to me.

My stance on the RCC is only strengthened by this kind of nonsense. You don't want to adress the problems, you want to belittle the folks who do. Well go ahead, I'm not hard to make fun of. You won't be the first or last.

 

Mr. C,
I want to know if you think my ideas for explaining the sins of Christians are practical and sufficient or not. Because we do have to find ways to evangelize that are effective. Christians do sin. We wish "we" didn't, but we do. Thankfully, the majority of us are not commiting grave, mortal sins.
But some are. And we will be confronted with that.

In fact, people in the world expect a lot of us Christians. I remember a case before I became a Protestant Christian. A group of us were having our usual weekend party, playing cards and drinking. A Seventh Day Adventist man, whose wife was out of town, came. He started to do something that went against his religious commitment and it distressed me. I said to him, "You don't have to do that." And I was disappointed when he went ahead and did it. In a way, the people of the world are paying us a compliment when they criticize us for sinning. They are right to expect more of us.

However, if that woman actually started yelling at you -- there was some deeper, inner problem there than what she is reading in the newspapers. Did she focus her comments on Catholic priests? If so, why was she yelling at you, a non-Catholic?

When people over-react to a subject, it usually comes from some experience in their background which makes that subject especially painful to them. So then praying for them is essential that they might get it all straightened out with God. Maybe they need to hear an apology for having been hurt by someone or something related to Christianity.

Pauline

 

Every Christian in every denomination or local church has committed "atrocities" in the eyes of God. To label the Catholic Church as the committer of atrocities is both arrogant and unintelligent.

Daniel Payne