Featured Roman Soteriology Exposed and Condemned

I've got another couple of quotes from the utilyan bible here:

James 1:5-6. 'If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives liberally to those who qualify by having works and love. But let him ask only if he's quite sure that he really, really loves God and his neighbour, otherwise no dice.'

James 1:18. 'By His own will he brought us forth because we had sufficient works.'

James 2:23. 'And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham deserved to be saved and his righteousness was duly acknowledged.'

Utilyan, why don't you ask how many people on this board are actually Lutheran? However, salvation by grace alone through faith alone is taught all the way through the Bible.

 

I wouldn't agree to "SOLA WORKS" either in the conventional sense.

I don't agree with either extremist.

You would catch me debating Jehovah Witness for example who are very works oriented to the point they mark the hours you do preaching and the hardest working is the holiest.


When it comes to two theological points the Catholic answer is typically BOTH/AND rather then EITHER/OR.

Its a surprise trinity slipped past most of you.


Best salvation example is Paul. Paul is unrepentant, blasphemer, killing Christians. Not a lick of a faith, nor works.

But by divine intervention Paul was saved. He was thoroughly disqualified by status, and he certainty didn't earn his place.

 

Had Paul believed in Faith Alone he wouldn't say the following.

Romans 13

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Galatians 5

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


All these instructions and warnings would never come from a Paul who believes in "Faith Alone". In fact as I pointed out earlier PAUL himself was saved, not by faith.

Paul himself was unrepentant blasphemer.


1 timothy 1

13even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

He wasn't shown mercy because he had "faith alone". He wasn't shown mercy because of "works alone". Just like this scripture says we give absolute credit to Jesus Christ. Not your faith, nor your works.

Had it been FAITH ALONE. There is no grounds for Paul to receive any mercy.


16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Ask yourself what makes for perfect patience? Jesus Christ. The reason Paul got mercy was because he was sinner.

A sinner is not someone with perks and privileges a cheater to us. A sinner is the greatest victim our priority to assist. A sinner in prisoned by fear, he doesn't trust God (without faith).

No one else qualifies most as least of brethren. That's why we will leave 99 sheep to look for the lost one.

I'm not one who is twiddling my thumbs wondering about am I saved am I not saved, Is this guy going to heaven? is this guy going to hell? Is doing this going to give me salvation? whats the conditions for salvation? I believe Christ is with everyone.


Romans 10

6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

Well congratulations! I think you may be getting there. You have just about all five of the Solas of the Reformation there.
Grace alone- the sheer undeserved favour and mercy of God (1 Timothy 1:13-14; James 1:18).
Faith alone- No works to bring. Just trust in the Christ who died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6)..
Christ alone- No priest, no Virgin Mary, no saints. ''Nor is there salvation in any other; for there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:12).
The Scriptures alone- "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART.'
To the Glory of God alone- 'Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth' (Psalm 115:1).

 

The common sense perspective is someone who reads the bible doesn't start at ROMANS.

He would read from Genesis to Acts and nothing about it would remotely spark off "faith alone".

When he would arrive at romans when clearly Paul takes up his Jewish position like a devil's advocate to explain to the Jews that the works of the Law don't give them a superior position over Gentiles.

The root error being made is that Jewish works of the Law implies all works and all laws.

My understanding.

Romans

He starts off telling folks not to sin and not to judge others.



Around Romans 2 this judging others gets on the case of Jews and their equality to gentiles.

How gentiles become law onto themselves. How they become circumcised internally.

IN romans 3 Paul makes himself a hard core Jew to explain the defects between the Law vs Faith.

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;"

When he says "we have already charged" He is speaking as a hard core Jew.

Under the works of the law EVERYONE is condemned.

“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

"All fall short the glory of God, all are dirty rags."

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

All that condemnation is towards those who are under the works of the law.



27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

There is still a LAW around and inclusive Law of Faith.


The Jews had a exclusive works of the law.

Romans

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also?

If Paul believed the opposite he would have said

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith WITH THE works of the Law. 29Since God is God of the Jews ONLY.

Works of the Law = JEWS

^not ALL works not ALL Laws.

If we did not maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, we would exclude gentiles. But since God is GOD of the gentiles ALSO we are justified as being under God by faith.




Paul is not ditching the works of the law. To do so would ditch all Jews entirely. He even says right after:

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Keep in mind this "works of the Law" applies to Jews only.


Romans 7
1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.



Laws HERE....LAWS there....LAWS up and down and everywhere

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.



Serving the Law of God is not a bad thing.


All this is from Romans.

Romans 12

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.



Paul says do this, Nothing combative with commandments vs law vs faith vs love. The whole thing is beautiful, none of it is fighting each other.

 

Let me give you a hint. The beginning of the bible is at page one.

James 2
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Well he's certainly not calling me a fool....so who is this?

17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Who is this idiot who doesn't understand faith is USELESS by itself?


It doesn't matter if you have Chocolate or Vanilla Faith....by itself it is USELESS.

 

I can go on and on even without commentary.

James 2

1My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.


James 2

8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well.

 

I think we're all painfully aware of that.

 

Matthew 5
29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.


Faith Alone^

You forgot to send Jesus the memo.

 

No, He actually wrote the memo.
'Don't be afraid, only believe.' (Mark 5:36).
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?' (John 11:25-26).

Well, do you?

 

the source of their washing would be the person of jesus, and not the water itself!

Acts 2:38, Greek text rendering is that its being water baptized in the name of the source of washing away sins, that is jesus christ Himself!

 

Yes! It is done thusly: "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost".

 

As all important is NOT being water baptized, but in placing faith in the Ones being baptized into!

 

Matthew 21

28“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29“And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went. 30“The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go. 31“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. 32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.


OH I BELIEVE!


Matthew 7

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

Do you believe?

 

The physical technicalities are God's choice. Jesus died on the cross, physical as is, let me hear you deny and say his death on the cross did nothing.

Tell me Jesus Christ physically Body and Blood is worthless.


That is because God's omnipotent ability could have a dog scratch itself to take away the sins of the world. It is God's CHOICE his WILL.

So if he says be baptized with water its a done deal. There is only one baptism.

If I see a man get it from water and another man has tongues of fire over his head with hundreds of angels surrounding him. Same thing, ONE BAPTISM.

You might be impressed by a laser show. The only thing that matters to me is the word of God.

 

I can't believe that you can argue this long and still not understand.
Read Hebrews 11. By faith Abel did this; by faith Abraham did that; by faith Moses did the other thing.
BY FAITH. Saving faith always leads to action. But the faith comes first, then the action. How can you love someone you don't believe in? How can you serve someone you don't believe in? First you believe unto salvation, then you produce the good works that God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them ((Ephesians 2:10). It has to be that way because 'without faith it is impossible to please God.' (Hebrews 11:6).