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Romans 11

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by glad4mercy, Oct 17, 2019.

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  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I has never ceased to amaze me the way people will take plain teaching by Paul such as is found in Romans 11 and turn it to their own scheme.

    After decades of attempting to show the foolishness of some views by pointing to Romans 11, and by going verse by verse and at times expressing the original language, some just continue in their own blindness and obstinacy.

    Figured that some just won't agree with Paul until the Lord demonstrates it.

    Just as @glad4mercy systematically presented truth, and just as such is always rejected, it doesn't change.

    Here are some basic denials seen and I have heard in the past concerning Romans 1
    1. There are no longer ethnic Jews. That is a lie. DNA testing proves it.
    2. There is not an end to the gentile time. That is a lie. Ostriches deny the truth, too.
    3. There will never be a national Israel. That is a lie. History bears witness.
    4. God has no plan for national Israel being brought to Christ. That is a lie. ALL the prophets spoke concerning the matter will be fulfilled, just as all the prophets spoke concerning the second advent.
    5. There is never a millennial reign, temple, physical return of Christ,.... That is a lie. The Scriptures state such will come.
    And on it goes.

    I have heard and read people completely discredit whole passages of OT prophecy just to maintain their view. How bold such must be in their dismissal of such Scriptures as no longer viable or have veracity concerning the future.

    I may not agree with all that @glad4mercy may post on the BB, but to deny that he has posted accurately concerning Paul's writing in Romans 11 in this thread is just wrong.
     
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  2. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    Paul is not merely repeating himself over and over again. His argument in Romans 9-11 is progressing towards the mystery in Romans 11:25. The best bible exegetes are with me on the interpretation of Romans 11 as being a future restoration of Israel.
     
  3. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    I do not agree with Calvin on everything, but he was spot on on Romans 11.

    So was the RC Sproul.

    So was Gill

    So was Jamieson , Faucett, and Brown

    Probably a lot of others too.
     
  4. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    Thanks Brother

    You may be surprised with how much we agree on. My views are much different now than they were years ago when I used to post here formerly, if you are thinking about my posts from back then.
     
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I put what I put from me, first.

    He has a way of stating a lot that is a Blessing.

    He was not sound or very clear on Church Truth.

    Just as I was told by someone who must know, or he wouldn't have said it, he said Gill would beat the Armenians to a pulp, and whether or not an Armenian thing was being advanced by them.

    Anyway, I do that with Church Truth, because the understanding of The church ORGANIZATION JESUS CREATED, is so sparse.

    His discussion on Roman's 11, I cut at some general idea he spoke of as the 'Gentile church state'.

    I think his conception of those words would be, 'The New Testament Kingdom of The Son', including all Saved people alive, at a given time.

    I can't put the word 'church' in something like that, unless he meant all those who were members of The Lord's churches.

    You can or can't expect everything someone says to be perfect.

    He went afield and spoke of the wonderful Blessing of God to those in our Present Age that Know God, but where, or why, what is the Jew thing?

    An overlap with Spiritual Israel's Blessings Promised?

    Dunno.

    That confusion can be in people's heads.

    "oh, be good to Israel as a Nation, or God won't like it" = stupid saying.
     
  6. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    I can see partial quoting, but not cutting off a quote in the middle of a paragraph. That's just me, though. That's cool. You can do what you want.
     
  7. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    "It then follows that all nations shall be brought publicly to profess the gospel prior to the removal of the hardness from the whole nation of the Jews."

    This is an odd formula to bring forth, as if 'the Word of The Lord Came to Calvin'.

    That thing would have to be dismissed, as a guess, right or wrong.

    I hope he doesn't do that a lot.
     
  8. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I gave the link.

    I'm not scared of giving the link to any original writing.

    It benefited what I said.

    Then, I didn't have a need to emphasize flesh.
     
  9. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    Speaking of Arminians. Here's something from my favorite Arminian....

    WESLEY's Explanatory Notes.

    Verse 25
    [25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    St. Paul calls any truth known but to a few, a mystery. Such had been the calling of the gentiles: such was now the conversion of the Jews.

    Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits — Puffed up with your present advantages; dreaming that ye are the only church; or that the church of Rome cannot fail.

    Hardness in part is happened to Israel, tillIsrael therefore is neither totally nor finally rejected.

    The fullness of the gentiles be come in — Till there be a vast harvest amongst the heathens.

    Verse 26
    [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    And so all Israel shall be savedBeing convinced by the coming of the gentiles. But there will be a still larger harvest among the gentiles, when all Israel is come in.

    The deliverer shall come — Yea, the deliverer is come; but not the full fruit of his coming. Isaiah 59:20

    Verse 28
    [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    They are now enemies — To the gospel, to God, and to themselves, which God permits.

    For your sake: but as for the election — That part of them who believe, they are beloved.

    Verse 29
    [29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance God does not repent of his gifts to the Jews, or his calling of the gentiles.
     
  10. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    ; "and that their future restoration to the faith is here foretold was the sentiment held"

    Whoever the "Ed" is, put 'sentiments' out there.

    A man saying something.

    Other people saying it.

    That doesn't mean the least little thing to me.

    They have 'read the Prophets' and took something away from them about National Israel that is spoken of Spiritual Israel, is my guess.

    If everyone on Earth does that, I'm not going to.
     
  11. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    John R. Rice.

    The Coming Kingdom of Christ

    Lots of references to the prophets here

    I am not in full agreement with Rice. I believe Israel will be converted IMMEDIETELY BEFORE Jesus second advent, not when Jesus comes back. But I'm not dogmatic on that.
     
  12. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Do the people here all have an embedded misunderstanding and lack of Bible knowledge, when anything about The Lord's church He Has The New Testament FULL of Teachings on, is mentioned?

    According to me.

    I just skipped it there, as I always would anywhere.

    Kenneth Copeland has Blessing in his teachings on some subjects, but if I record a tape, I've edited out "baptism of the Holy Spirit" that that whole crowd has goofy ideas about.

    Going into explosive wording that he may not and those here may not appreciate as denying God His Glory in The church that Jesus Built's existence they just don't know, is where I chose to give that up, in the passage.

    Preachers sometimes 'wonder' and close their Bible and put there elbows on it and say, "my daughters stillborn baby will be a full grown woman when I see her in Heaven".

    O. K., Preacher.

    "Jesus is going to try to Preach the Gospel to The Jews, when the 1,000 year alarm clock winds down to the end of a made up illusion in the carnal thinking I'm doing".

    O. K., Preacher.

    Copeland says some doozys, in person.

    On purpose. Slipped back into his full con mode.

    Not O. K., Preacher.

    Take the meat and leave the bones.

    Gill didn't have Bible for those musings, when he usually does, in spades.
     
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Covenant of Grace Promise to Save the Remnant of The Jews.
     
  14. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    So, something Comes About for Jews, just before Jesus Comes?

    Oh, well.

    I certainly didn't say, 'when He Comes Back'.

    Judgment WIll Be all He Brings for all the lost.

    And no, 'left behind' insanity, of course.

    ...

    Aside from that, looks like we need to add, ". I believe Israel will be converted IMMEDIETELY BEFORE Jesus second advent", to Roman's 11, somewhere.

    Where?

    Let's see it.
     
    #74 Alan Gross, Oct 19, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    There it is.

    "(as the prophets have foretold) will effectually embrace that which they now so stubbornly for the most part reject and refuse."

    Geneva did it.

    Got something, somewhere, from a Prophet.

    What?

    Is that we're, "A bunch of Jews will be Saved immediately before Jesus Returns", is, too?

    Maybe the Prophets say something.

    Maybe something they said is totally misconstrued and attempted to be jammed into these Roman 11 verse, where there is nothing remotely TAUGHT THERE ABOUT IT.

    IT IS ADDED.

    SURMISED.

    Argueing from silence.

    What do the verses look like when it's added to them?

    The same?
     
  16. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    why I said right before He comes. Read the prophets again.
     
  17. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    zechariah 12
     
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Oh my God.

    Yeah, that's all misinterpretation of Old Testament Prophecy.

    They speak of Israel and sometimes the Blessings of The Current Day of The Lord, then The Day of Vengence of our God, that is separated by a comma.

    Israel is very often, 'The Spiritual seed of Abraham".

    Their transitions can be abrupt, between their references to The Day of Salvation (now) and Eternity.

    Certainly, expressing New Testament Truths, in Old Testament language makes for Wonderful Revelations.

    Returning the Mosaic System of Sacrifices, that were representational and symbolic emblems, to start with, back to a restored Mosaic System of Sacrifices, not so much.

    No Worship there.

    No insight.

    No Blessing.

    Just pure junk.

    ...

    Those notions do not grasp their Present Day Application, as New Testament Truths, couched and expressed in Old Testament language.

    No wonder a pot load of God-Hating and denying Jews are said to jump up and get a Jesus, "Just before He Returns".

    Yep.

    All off, in the Literature reading.
     
  19. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy Active Member

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    read the book I linked by John Rice. Lots of scripture references in there
     
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good.

    Makes you think.

    Then, wait a minute.

    Yeah, read 'em.
     
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